194 Wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione liczebniki indogermańskie i ich wysokoenergetyczne PieRwotne PRa-Słowiańskie rdzenie, PieR+WS”y, PRW, PR 05

gorący napój paruje (1.1)

…..

Po namyśle postanowiłem, że indogiermańskimi słowami jak RiGHT i Re(c)HT zajmę się na koniec tej serii. Jak okazało się, słowa te powiązane są z innymi Pra-Słowiańskimi rdzeniami i słowami, które nie maja jednak nic wspólnego z rdzeniem PR, PRW. Nie ukrywam, że nie spodziewałem się tego.

Zdaję sobie sprawę, że języki indogiermańskie są zdrowo zakręcone i zniekształcone. Sądziłem, że zwyczajnie IndoGiermańce ubezdźwięcznili sobie początek Pra-Słowiańskiego słowa PRaW, tak że wyszło im coś jak (P)RiGHT, (P)Re(c)HT. Myliłem siem!

Wygląda na to, że IndoGiermańcy na określenie co jest PRaWe, zapożyczyli sobie inne Pra-Słowiańskie słowa, których znaczeń jednak chyba nie zrozumieli za dobrze. Aż korci, żeby napisać „jak zwykle”… Co tu dużo gadać, jest tradycyjnie… Nic to.

Tymczasem, proszę sobie porównać poniższe dane. Jeśli coś pominąłem, proszę o wskazanie tego, a uzupełnię to. Zacznę PRo+STo (lub P+RoS+To) i od PR”oDo’, ale w porządku alfabetycznym. To trochę potrwa…

Twierdzę, że:

  • Język Pra-Słowiański jest Pra-Językiem wysokoenergetycznym Europejskich Łowców-Zbieraczy / Eastern Hunter Gatherers / EHG, z powszechną obocznością rdzeni, tożsamym z językiem tzw. PIE / Pra-Indo-Europejskim / Proto-Indo-European.

  • ofitzjalne jęsykoznaftzo to przeciw-logiczna, przeciw-słowiańska fielko-indogiermańska, po-nowogramatyczno-koSSinowsko-nazi propaganda, a nie wiarygodna i sprawdzalna rozumowo wiedza.

No i co Faszystkie IndoGiermańskie Omysły? Podważyta z tego co napisałem coś, cosik, cosiczek?

Tej / temu, kto znajdzie jakieś jedno Pra-Słowiańskie ubezdźwięcznienie przyznam jakąś nagrodę. Nie wiem jeszcze jaką, ale obiecuję, że jeśli ktoś znajdzie tu jakiś Pra-Słowiański kfiad fafroki, no to uhonoruję to specjalnie! 🙂

…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/pra-

pra- (język polski)

wymowa:
IPA[pra]AS[pra]
znaczenia:

temat słowotwórczy

(1.1) pierwszy człon wyrazów złożonych wskazujący na ich związek znaczeniowy z czymś bardzo odległym w czasie lub z pierwotną formą bądź pierwszym wystąpieniem czegoś
(1.2) pierwszy człon wyrazów złożonych nazywających kogoś żyjącego dawnodalekiego przodka lub potomka
odmiana:
(1.1–2) nieodm.
kolokacje:
(1.1) prapremiera • prasłowiański
(1.2) prababcia • pradziadek • prawnuczka • prawnuk
tłumaczenia:
  • esperanto: (1.1) pra; (1.2) pra

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pra-

pra-

Czech

Etymology

From Old Czech pra- (before (in time)).[1]

Pronunciation

Prefix

pra-

  1. great- (removed by one generation from)
    pradědeček ― great-grandfather
    prababička ― great-grandmother
  2. fore- (ancestor)
    praotec ― forefather
    pramáti ― foremother
  3. primaevalprimary
    prales ― primaeval forest
    pračlověk ― primaeval man
    prahmota ― primary matter
  4. (linguistics) proto-
    pračeština ― Proto-Czech
    praslovanština ― Proto-Slavic
  5. veryextremely (intensifying the meaning of the original adjective)
    prapodivný ― very strange
    pramalý ― extremely small

Synonyms

Derived terms

Related terms

References

  1. „pra-” in Jiří Rejzek, Český etymologický slovník, Leda, 2015, →ISBN, page 545.

Further reading


Polish

Prefix

pra-

  1. proto-pre-ur-
    praporządek – preorder
    prajęzyk – proto-language
    prastary – ancient
  2. prepended to ancestors before grandparentsgreat-
    pradziadek
    prababcia
  3. prepended to descendants after grandchildren
    prawnuk
    prawnuczka

Derived terms

Further reading

  • pra- in Polish dictionaries at PWN

Serbo-Croatian

Prefix

pra- (Cyrillic spelling пра-)

  1. appended to ancestors before grandparents
    pra- + ‎deda → ‎pradeda
    pra- + ‎baba → ‎prababa
  2. ur-primitiveprimordialprehistoric
    pra- + ‎postojbina → ‎prapostojbina (urheimat)
    pra- + ‎istorija → ‎praistorija (prehistory)

Derived terms

See also


Slovak

Prefix

pra-

  1. great- (removed by one generation from)
    pra- + ‎ded → ‎praded
  2. (linguistics) proto-
    pra- + ‎slovanština → ‎praslovanština

Derived terms


Slovene

Pronunciation

Prefix

prȃ-

  1. great- (removed by one generation from)
    pra- + ‎dẹ̑d → ‎prȃdẹ̑d
  2. (linguistics) proto-
    pra- + ‎slovȃnščina → ‎prȃslovȃnščina

Derived terms

Further reading

  • pra-” in Slovarji Inštituta za slovenski jezik Frana Ramovša ZRC SAZU – portal Fran

…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/para-

para- (język polski)

wymowa:
IPA[ˈpara]AS[para]
znaczenia:

temat słowotwórczy

(1.1) pierwszy człon wyrazów złożonych oznaczającynibyprawiepodobny do tegoco jest określane drugą częścią złożenia
kolokacje:
(1.1) paramedyk • paranormalny
tłumaczenia:

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/para-

para-

English

Etymology 1


From Ancient Greek παρά (parábeside; next to, near, from; against, contrary to).


Prefix

para-

  1. abovebeyond
  2. besidenearalongsidethroughout
  3. abnormalincorrect
  4. resembling
    para-communist
  5. (organic chemistry) In isomeric benzene derivatives, having the two substituents in opposite (1,4) positions (compare ortho- and meta-)

Synonyms

(organic chemistry): p-

Derived terms

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC#Ancient_Greek

παρά

Ancient Greek

Alternative forms

Etymology


From Proto-Indo-European *preh₂-.


Pronunciation

Preposition

πᾰρᾰ́  (pará) (governs the genitivedative and accusative)

  1. (+ genitive)
    1. from
    2. because of
  2. (+ dative)
    1. besidebynear
  3. (+ accusative)
    1. contrary to

Descendants

Further reading

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/preh%E2%82%82-

Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/preh₂-

Proto-Indo-European

Etymology


From *per- (before).


Root

*preh₂-

  1. before, in front

Derived terms

  • *préh₂i (beforelocative)
  • *pr̥h₂i (zero-grade locative)
    • Celtic: *ɸare < *ɸari (-e is secondary) (see there for further descendants)
    • Germanic: *furi (see there for further descendants)
  • *pr̥h₂-ó
  • *pr̥h₂oy
    • Germanic: *furai (see there for further descendants)
  • *pr̥h₂-yós- ~ *pr̥h₂-is- (comparative)
  • *pr̥h₂-ós

UWAGA!

Widać wtórne ubezdźwięcznienia? O *per, itp, będę pisał szerzej w następnych wpisach.


…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/para

para (język polski)

para (1.1)

para (1.2) tancerzy

para (1.3) butów

para (1.4) spodni

para (1.6) kaczek

para (1.8) nad wodą

czterdzieści par (1.9)

wymowa:
wymowa ?/iIPA[ˈpara]AS[para]
znaczenia:

rzeczownik, rodzaj żeński

(1.1) dwie osobydarzące się uczuciem
(1.2) dwie osoby występujące wspólnienp. w grzew tańcu
(1.3) dwa przedmioty stanowiące komplet
(1.4) określenie niektórych przedmiotówskładających się z dwóch takich samych części
(1.5) drugi przedmiot z przedmiotów występujących po dwa
(1.6) dwoje ludzi lub zwierząt
(1.7) fiz. woda w stanie gazowymzob. też para wodna w Wikipedii
(1.8) pot. woda w stanie zawiesiny kropel w powietrzu
(1.9) jedn. monet. dawna moneta turecka i jugosłowiańskazob. też para (moneta) w Wikipedii
(1.10) daw. gw. więz. gotówka[1]

czasownik, forma fleksyjna

(2.1) 3. os. lpter. od: parać się
odmiana:
(1.1–9)

(2.1) zob. parać się
przykłady:
(1.1) Ania i Jarek od pewnego czasu  parą.
(1.2) Na korcie trwa rozgrywka par mieszanych.
(1.3) Kupiłem żonie dwie pary butów.
(1.4) Jaś wziął parę sanek i poszedł sobie pozjeżdżać.
(1.5) Po praniu zawsze zostaje mi skarpeta bez pary.
(1.7) Po ogrzaniu wody powstaje bezbarwna para.
(1.8) Nad czajnikiem unoszą się kłęby pary.
(1.9) Sprzedawca wydał mi 50 par reszty.
(2.1) Ewa para się sportem wyczynowym.
składnia:
(1.3–4) para + D.
(1.5) para do + D.
(1.7) para + D.
kolokacje:
(1.3) para rękawiczek / oczu / skarpet
(1.4) para majtek / nożyczek / sanek
(1.7) para wodna
synonimy:
(1.1) dwojedwójka
(1.2) debel
(1.3) komplet
(1.8) oparymgła
antonimy:
(1.1) jeden
wyrazy pokrewne:
(1.1–5)
rzecz. zdrobn. parka żpareczka ż
czas. parzyć się ndk.parować ndk.sparować dk.
przym. parzysty
przysł. parzyście
(1.7–8)
rzecz. opar mparownik mparowiec mparnik mparówka żparowanie n
czas. parować ndk.wyparować dk.odparować dk.parzyćzaparzać
przym. parowyparny
przysł. parno
związki frazeologiczne:
(1.1–6) młoda para • nie do pary • inna para kaloszy
(1.7–8) być pod parą • całą parą • i na żagiel, i na parę • iść pełną parą • mieć parę • nie puścić pary z ust / nie puścić pary z gęby • ruszać pełną parą • nieszczęścia chodzą parami
uwagi:
zob. też para w Wikipedii
tłumaczenia:
źródła:
  1.  Słowniczek gwary więziennej, „Język Polski” nr 10/1913, s. 298.

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/para

para

Polish

Pronunciation

Etymology 1


From Proto-Slavic *para*parъ.


Noun

para f

  1. (uncountable) steam, water in gaseous phase
  2. (uncountable) breath

Declension

Etymology 2


From Middle High German pâr (German Paar), from Latin pār.


Noun

para f

  1. couple (two partners in a romantic relationship)
  2. pair (two objects)

Declension

Further reading

  • para in Polish dictionaries at PWN

UWAGA!

Czy to nie dziwne, że to From Middle High German pâr (German Paar), from Latin pār jakoś wtórnie nie ubezdźwięczniło się?! Dlaczego? Czyżby było to bardzo późne zapożyczenie..?


…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/para&action=edit&redlink=1

Wiktionary does not yet have a reconstruction page for Proto-Slavic/para.

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/par%D1%8A&action=edit&redlink=1

Wiktionary does not yet have a reconstruction page for Proto-Slavic/parъ.

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paar#German

Paar

German

Etymology


From Middle High German par, from Old High German par, from Latin pār.


Pronunciation

Noun

Paar n (genitive Paares or Paarsplural Paarediminutive Pärchen n)

  1. paircouple.

    Ein Paar brauner Schuhe.

    pair of brown shoes.

Declension

Related terms

Further reading

  • Paar in Duden online

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/par#Latin

par

Latin

Etymology


Unclear. A traditional reconstruction is Proto-Indo-European *perH- (exchange), comparing Ancient Greek πέρνημι (pérnēmi) etc. and Lithuanian  pirkti; but this accounts badly for the /a(ː)/. Others refrain from assigning an Indo-European root.


Pronunciation

Adjective

pār (genitive paris); third declension

  1. even (of a number)
  2. equal
  3. like
  4. suitable

Declension

Third declension.

Number Singular Plural
Case / Gender Masc./Fem. Neuter Masc./Fem. Neuter
Nominative pār pār parēs paria
Genitive paris paris parium parium
Dative parī parī paribus paribus
Accusative parem pār parēs paria
Ablative parī parī paribus paribus
Vocative pār pār parēs paria

Derived terms

Descendants

  • Portuguese: par
  • Spanish: par
  • Swedish: par
  • Venetian: par

See also

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/perH-&action=edit&redlink=1

Wiktionary does not yet have a reconstruction page for Proto-Indo-European/perH-.


UWAGA!

Ancient Greek πέρνημι (pérnēmi) wygląda na źle odczytane, patrz: Przemiana / PR”e+MiaNa, Zamiana / Za+MiaNa, itp!


…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/para%C4%87_si%C4%99

parać się (język polski)

wymowa:
IPA[ˈparaʨ̑‿ɕɛ]AS[parać‿śe], zjawiska fonetyczne: zmięk.• denazal.• zestr. akc.
znaczenia:

czasownik

(1.1) książk. zajmować się
przykłady:
(1.1) Jako człek rycerskiktóry się niegdyś żołnierskiem rzemiosłem parałwiemże Szwedzi w obliczu nieprzyjaciela musieli gęste ponad Wisłą popostawiać straże.[1]
(1.1) Fringilla Vigo słyszała co nieco o wiedźminachosobnikach zawodowo parających się zabijaniem potworów i bestii[2].
(1.1) Mamy tutaj dwietrzy takie rodzinyktóre parają się kłusownictwem od dawna – twierdzi[3].
źródła:
  1.  https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Szwedzi_w_Warszawie/Rozdzia%C5%82_XXIII
  2.  Andrzej Sapkowski, Chrzest ognia, 2001, Narodowy Korpus Języka Polskiego.
  3.  BZ, Kłusownicza aktywność, „Tygodnik Podhalański”, 1999, Narodowy Korpus Języka Polskiego.

…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/parzy%C4%87

parzyć (język polski)

herbata się parzy (3.3)

wymowa:
IPA[ˈpaʒɨʨ̑]AS[pažyć]
znaczenia:

czasownik przechodni niedokonany (dk. zaparzyć)

(1.1) być odczuwanym jako gorące
(1.2) kulin. poddawać coś działaniu wrzątku lub gorącej wody
(1.3) kulin. otrzymywać napar po zalaniu wrzątkiemzalewać coś wrzątkiem

czasownik przechodni niedokonany (dk. poparzyć)

(2.1) podrażniać skórę podobnie jak coś gorącego

czasownik zwrotny niedokonany parzyć się

(3.1) odczuwać ból po dotknięciu czegoś gorącego
(3.2) o zwierzętach: łączyć się w pary w okresie godowymkopulować
(3.3) o ziołachherbacie: podlegać parzeniu
odmiana:
(1.1–3, 2.1) koniugacja VIb

(3.1–3) koniugacja VIb

przykłady:
(1.1) Każdy w dzieciństwie sprawdziłże ogień parzy.
(1.2) Według tego przepisu szynkę należy parzyć przez półtorej godziny w temperaturze ok. 80°C.
(1.3) Parzę sobie herbatęzrobić ci też?
(2.1) Pokrzywy parzą przy dotknięciu.
(3.1) Jestem niezdarąbo często parzę się żelazkiem.
(3.2) Te ohydne pawianyparzą się na oczach zwiedzających zoo!
(3.3) W moim kubku parzą się ziółka.
kolokacje:
(1.2) parzyć kiełbasę / szynkę / wędliny
(1.3) parzyć herbatę / kawę / miętę / zioła
wyrazy pokrewne:
rzecz. naparzanie nnaparzanka żnaparzenie nodparzelina żodparzanie nodparzenie noparzelina żoparzelisko noparzelizna żoparzelnik mrzoparzanie noparzenie noparzeniówka żpara żparzelnia żparzenie nparzonka żparzydełko nparzydełkowiec mzwparzydło nponaparzanie npoodparzanie npoparzenie npoparzeniec mospoparzony mospowyparzanie nrozparzacz mosrozparzanie nrozparzenie nrozparzeniec mossparzanie nsparzelizna żsparzenie nwyparzacz mrzwyparzanie nwyparzarka żwyparzenie nzaparzacz mrzzaparzaczka żzaparzanie nzaparzenie n
czas. naparzać ndk.naparzyć dk.odparzać ndk.odparzyć dk.oparzać ndk.oparzyć dk.ponaparzać dk.poodparzać dk.powyparzać dk.poparzyć dk.rozparzać ndk.rozparzyć dk.sparzać ndk.sparzyć dk.wyparzać ndk.wyparzyć dk.zaparzać ndk.zaparzyć dk.
przym. parzelniczyparzydełkowyoparzelinowyoparzeniowypoparzony
przysł. parząco
tłumaczenia:

…..

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/parowa%C4%87

parować (język polski)

gorący napój paruje (1.1)

wymowa:
IPA[paˈrɔvaʨ̑]AS[parovać]
znaczenia:

czasownik

(1.1) wydzielać parę wodną
(1.2) łączyć w pary
(1.3) poddawać działaniu pary

czasownik zwrotny parować się

(2.1) łączyć się samemu w pary
odmiana:
(1.1–2) koniugacja IV

(2.1) koniugacja IV

przykłady:
(1.1) Dziewczynawciąż trąc stłuczony o drabinę łokiećskwapliwie sięgnęła po parujący dzban z przyprawionym korzeniami piwem[1].
wyrazy pokrewne:
rzecz. para żparówka żparowanie nwyparowanie nparownica żparownik mparnik mparowiec mzw/mrz
czas. wyparowaćwyparowywaćsparować
przym. parowyparny
tłumaczenia:
źródła:
  1.  Artur Baniewicz, Smoczy pazur, 2003, Narodowy Korpus Języka Polskiego.

…..

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parowa%C4%87

parować

Polish

Pronunciation

  • IPA(key)/paˈrɔ.vat͡ɕ/

Verb

parować impf

  1. (intransitive) to steam (to produce or vent steam)

Conjugation

Related terms

Further reading

  • parować in Polish dictionaries at PWN

…..

Pożar / Po+Z”/JaR łączy się to z Right. Będzie to omówione w innym wpisie, jak i kolejne słowa wywodzące się z rdzenia PR.

Reklamy

108 uwag do wpisu “194 Wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione liczebniki indogermańskie i ich wysokoenergetyczne PieRwotne PRa-Słowiańskie rdzenie, PieR+WS”y, PRW, PR 05

  1. Polskie słowa, których nie umiem wymawiać [Ignacy z Japonii #45]

    Ignacy z Japonii
    Published on May 9, 2019

    Cześć, jestem Ignacy z Japonii! W tym filmiku wymieniam 19 polskich słów, których nie lubię ze względu na wymowę. Fonetyka polska jest dla mnie, jako Japończyka, bardzo trudna i zawsze mam z nią kłopot. Cały czas staram się pracować nad wymową i mam nadzieję, że kiedyś będę mówił po polsku bez akcentu.

    dominika xd
    Kiedy jesteś Polką, ale dowiadujesz się od Ignacego, które to głoski wargowe. Podziwiam

    N0 N4M3
    Też tego nie wiedziałem 🙂 Ale z drugiej strony jak to twój język ojczysty to mówisz i po co Ci takie pierdoły wiedzieć.

    Jerzy Wiesław Franczak
    @N0 N4M3 nie do końca tak jest, wiadomo gramatyka języka polskiego wywietrzeje z czasem, ale pierdoły warto wiedzieć, chyba?

    Polubienie

  2. Pingback: 195 Wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione liczebniki indogermańskie i ich wysokoenergetyczne PieRwotne PRa-Słowiańskie rdzenie, PieR+WS”y, PRW, PR 06 | SKRBH

    • Charlemagne’s Wars // Gudfred: King of the Danes (804-810)

      History Time
      Published on Sep 11, 2018

      Zed Williams
      Charlemagne: Here’s my god of love. Accept him and be blessed.
      Germanic tribes: No thanks. We’ll stick with our own gods, thank you.
      Charlemagne: Kill them all for rejecting my god of love!

      Sig Ræven
      I think Charlemagne is the reason for the viking age raids.
      Historychannel- „we don’t know why the Vikings did id”
      Me- I know why they did it liars, Charlemagne.

      Maria \palmer
      2 weeks ago
      timomastosalo . Yes. To go a- viking . The funny thing is they seem to know in Scandinavia, what factors kicked off the era , but others are quite slow to add in all the facts .

      timomastosalo
      @Maria \palmer Or, they conveniently forget their own exploits before the Viking age. Like people all over the world want to repreresent themselves as victims: Notice the wrong done upon them, and leaving out their own misbahaviour. And the other people’s evil is usually observed pretty accurately. The blind spot is in the own activities. It’s seen even in our more mundane actions, like family quarrels 🙂

      The old fingerpointing tactics – which would then justify the wrong they did. Nothing new under the sun. West Africans have a saying: When you point someone with a finger, 3 are pointing yourself.

      No, they had been raiding before – just not much in the West. It’s just that now in the Viking age they became more successful, and so, known to the wider world.

      Maria \palmer
      timomastosalo . Yes indeed . And the Christians weren’t slow in attacking people that weren’t Christians

      Schmaiah goldberg
      why we never heard about this slavic tribes in history such as veleti and Obotrites

      Dennis Eggert
      The Germanic tribes called this Slavic people of the Elbe, the „Wends” most of them except for the czech were defeatet over times in the nordic crusades by empress Theuphanu and Duke Heinrich the Lion of the early HRE.

      1 1
      Sturminfantrist
      during the time of the barbarian invasion, german tribes left the area east of Elbe and moved westwards then „slavic” tribes filled the Vacuum
      False. German is latin term for various tribes especially celtic (Original Germans were celtic Paemani), and slavic. There was no „vaccum” in Poland and Połabie. It is a theory based on story of wandering Heruli, but no one can say which lands they wandered. In my opinion they wandered through central Germany which could be depopulated by these times.
      No source mentions any slavic invasion on Połabie. Instead we find polabian slavic names in Tacitus, Strabo, Ptolemy. Obodrites are known under names Nadvanarvali in Tacitus, Diduni in Ptolemy, Rondingos in Widsith, Scirdifrini Rerefrini (corrupption from Scindifrini) in Ravenna’s Geographer, Urwege in Annales Pagavienses. All these names are synonimical and mean „teared, ripped, rended in two”
      Sturminfantrist
      Hi wehraboo, don’t be biased against Slavs please and don’t repeat lies of Gustaf Kossina again.

      Old Man from Scene Twenty Four
      Charlemagne; „Covert or Die!” …Sounds familiar …

      Lord Erik
      Charlemagne The Saxon slaughterer

      Polubienie

      • Who was Charlemagne?

        Ryan Reeves
        Published on May 27, 2014

        Charlesmagne was one of the great kinds of medieval Europe. He was coronated by the pope in 800 A.D. and spread the faith of Christianity by sword and conversion. Charlesmagne therefore is controversial, but this 30-mintue video tells his story quickly.

        History of Germany – Documentary

        Fire Of Learning
        Published on Oct 22, 2018

        History of Germany Part 2

        Fire Of Learning
        Published on Dec 6, 2018

        Polubienie

  3. Stone Age Scandinavia: First People In the North (10,000-5000 BC)

    History Time
    Published on May 8, 2019

    Just Arma Clips
    how does 1 man with a £500 PC produce better content than a multi-Billion pound state sponsered broadcasting company?

    Nathan M
    Because the latter has to adhere to all current political nonsense. Leaves little room for creativity and honest story telling.

    Collin Hennessy
    The latter has do dumb everything down as far as the current levels of multicultural enrichment demand. At least they haven’t fully switched over to broadcasting in Pidgin… yet.

    Gat 2mad
    @Collin Hennessy Give it a couple of decades and they will be broadcasting in Arabic

    Gat 2mad
    Because the latter is not designed to educated but instead to indoctrinate

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koelbjerg_Man

    https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/2gjBwWGDNBUkYeEc9U36/full

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320658845_The_Maglemosian_skeleton_from_Koelbjerg_Denmark_revisited_identifying_sex_and_provenance

    …..

    DNA niby zbadane, ale… wyników brak.

    …..

    The Nordic Bronze Age / Ancient History Documentary

    History Time
    Published on Feb 22, 2019

    Polubienie

  4. Do wszystkich. Lepiej to przeczytajcie, żeby nikt mi nie mówił, że nie rozumie o czym tu od dawna piszę…

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-pie-homeland-controversy-august.html

    Friday, August 2, 2019

    The PIE homeland controversy: August 2019 status report

    Archeologist David Anthony has a new paper on the Indo-European homeland debate titled Archaeology, Genetics, and Language in the Steppes: A Comment on Bomhard. It’s part of a series of articles dealing with Allan R. Bomhard’s „Caucasian substrate hypothesis” in the latest edition of The Journal of Indo-European Studies. It’s also available, without any restrictions, here.

    Any thoughts? Feel free to share them in the comments below. Admittedly, I found this part somewhat puzzling (emphasis is mine):

    It was the faint trace of WHG, perhaps 3% of whole Yamnaya genomes, that identified this admixture as coming from Europe, not the Caucasus, according to Wang et al. (2018). Colleagues in David Reich’s lab commented that this small fraction of WHG ancestry could have come from many different geographic places and populations.

    I think that’s highly optimistic. It really should be obvious by now thanks to archeological and ancient genomic data, including both uniparental and genome-wide variants, that the Yamnaya people were practically entirely derived from Eneolithic populations native to the Pontic-Caspian (PC) steppe. So, in all likelihood, this was also the source of their minor WHG ancestry.

    Indeed, they clearly weren’t some mishmash of geographically, culturally and genetically disparate groups that had just arrived in Eastern Europe, but the direct descendants of closely related and already significantly Yamnaya-like peoples associated with long-standing PC steppe archeological cultures such as Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog. I discussed this earlier this year, soon after the Wang et al. paper was published:

    On Maykop ancestry in Yamnaya

    I hope I’m wrong, but I get the feeling that the scientists at the Reich Lab are finding this difficult to accept, because it doesn’t gel with their theory that archaic Proto-Indo-European (PIE) wasn’t spoken on the PC steppe, but rather south of the Caucasus, and that late or rather nuclear PIE was introduced into the PC steppe by migrants from the Maykop culture who were somehow involved in the formation of the Yamnaya horizon.

    Inexplicably, after citing Wang et al. on multiple occasions and arguing against any significant gene flow between Maykop and Yamnaya groups, Anthony fails to mention Steppe Maykop. But the Steppe Maykop people are an awesome argument against the idea that there was anything more than occasional mating between the Maykop and Yamnaya populations, because they were wedged between them, and yet clearly distinct from both, with a surprisingly high ratio of West Siberian forager-related ancestry (see here and here).

    Despite all the talk lately about the potential cultural, linguistic and genetic ties between Maykop and Yamnaya, including claims that the latter possibly acquired its wagons from the former, my view is that the Steppe Maykop and Yamnaya wagon drivers may have competed with each other and eventually clashed in a big way. Indeed, take a look at what happens after Yamnaya burials rather suddenly replace those of Steppe Maykop just north of the Caucasus around 3,000 BCE.

    Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
    RUS_Progress_En_PG2001 0.808±0.058
    RUS_Steppe_Maykop 0.000
    UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En_I6561 0.192±0.058
    chisq 13.859
    tail prob 0.383882
    Full output

    Yep, total population replacement with no significant gene flow between the two groups. Apparently, as far as I can tell, there’s not even a hint that a few Steppe Maykop stragglers were incorporated into the ranks of the newcomers. Where did they go? Hard to say for now. Maybe they ran for the hills nearby?

    Intriguingly, Anthony reveals a few details about new samples from three different Eneolithic steppe burial sites associated with the Khvalynsk culture:

    The Reich lab now has whole-genome aDNA data from more than 30 individuals from three Eneolithic cemeteries in the Volga steppes between the cities of Saratov and Samara (Khlopkov Bugor, Khvalynsk, and Ekaterinovka), all dated around the middle of the fifth millennium BC.

    Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males, but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosome haplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appear only rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves.

    As far as I can tell, he suggests that they’ll be published in the forthcoming Narasimhan et al. paper. If so, it sounds like the paper will have many more ancient samples than its early preprint that was posted at bioRxiv last year.

    For me the really fascinating thing in regards to these new samples is how scarce Y-haplogroup R1a appears to have been everywhere before the expansion by the putative Indo-European-speaking steppe ancestors of the Corded Ware culture (CWC) people. It’s basically always outnumbered by other haplogroups wherever it’s found prior to about 3,000 BCE, even on the PC steppe. But then, suddenly, its R1a-M417 subclade goes BOOM! And that’s why I call it…

    The beast among Y-haplogroups

    At this stage, I’m not sure how to interpret the presence of Y-haplogroup J in the Khvalynsk population. It may or may not be important to the PIE homeland debate. Keep in mind that J is present in two foragers from Karelia and Popovo, northern Russia, dated to the Mesolithic period and with no obvious foreign ancestry. So it need not have arrived north of the Caspian as late as the Eneolithic with migrants rich in southern ancestry from the Caucasus or what is now Iran. In other words, for the time being, the steppe PIE homeland theory appears safe.

    See also…

    Did South Caspian hunter-fishers really migrate to Eastern Europe?

    The PIE homeland controversy: January 2019 status report

    Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but…

    Posted by Davidski at 3:50:00 AM 534 comments:

    Labels: ancient DNA, Caucasus, Corded Ware Culture, Eneolithic steppe, Khvalynsk, Late Proto-Indo-European, Maykop, PIE, Pontic-Caspian steppe, Proto-Indo-European, R1a, R1a-M417, R1a-Z93, R1b, R1b-M269, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya

    Polubienie

    • zardos said…
      Reading Reichs book, comments and watching video Interviews, its very clear he doesnt want to revive the classic, pre-Marxist influenced theories and notions of race. He wants the politically correct interpretation of human history, behaviour and differences to survive the genetic revelations. But thats not possible, because these ideological distortions of reality were based on lies and misconceptions from the start.

      That doesnt mean however, that the old ideas and concepts, or even worse explanations, were always right, but rather that we will, if dealing with the facts objectively, come to a future synthesis.

      If he wants to keep the politically correct dogmas alive and untouched the way they were about 2000, scientists would have to lie so big that sooner or later too many people will see it. Only oppressive measures can prevent the truth from coming up then. The IE is only one rather 2nd tear aspect of this problem, but its a part of it nevertheless. He knows it very well as his Kosinna quotes prove. Ideological misconceptions and blinders should not determine which facts being published and how they being interpreted scientifically. Politics and ideologies should accept the facts and adapt to it. If science is not independent,it will produce lies and nonsense and of course, it will lose credibility.

      Even to the point uneducated observers will distrust science and education as a whole. That’s a growing problem already. If science is being ideologized, a large portion of society wont listen any more. That wont help anybody, especially no one which appreciates the truth.

      Reich is more honest than most others actually, I truly appreciate this. But still you can feel how he cringes desperately on something which just Slips away. At some point the truth and being a scientist in the classic sense of it is a decision against ideological distortion and political control. It always was, just the ideologies changed.

      In this case of IE he desperately wants to keep up the story of „ex oriente lux”. If they were brutal conquerors like in the classic teachings, they have to be darkish half orientals taught by Near Eastern derived masters.

      Now I wouldnt having an issue with that, if it would be true and works out as THE explanation. But even with my rather limited knowledge I can see that too many parts dont fit into that puzzle. Its just not meaningful. For me steppe Maykop really sealed the deal for a big Maykop/late CHG contribution. They had called Eastern tribals to fend Yamnaya off, thats what we see. Like borderline ethnic troops in later, historical times.

      Sure there was cultural exchange, probably minor genetic, but Maykop was not formative. Formative was primarily the male lineage contributor and those were native steppe dwellers.

      As for R1a: My guess is a surprise (sub-)population to come. Not sampled so far, which will harbour a high frequency of R1a. The single individuals found so far are obviously just the results of small scale geneflow from this group.
      August 2, 2019 at 4:55 AM

      Gaska said…
      @Davidski- Obviously the only explanation for R1a-M417 is a massive founder effect similar to what happened with P312

      I cannot read the book although I suppose it will have very interesting data, however, from your comments I do not understand why people are surprised to see that variety of haplogroups in Khvalynsk and in general in all steppe cultures. I say this because everyone should understand that these cultures are the furthest from a homogenous culture that exists. They were not genetically or culturally or anthropologically or archaeologically homogeneous. And this in my opinion is one of the foundations of the criticisms of the famous mass migrations proposed by Haak and company

      @Juan Rivera-„Sure looks like Molgen is the only site now that denies that peninsular european R1b(xV88,R1b1*), R1a-CTS4385, Q1a and IE all come from steppe groups. On another topic, in the RUS_Samara_HG file, its R1b clade seems more congruent with M73 than with M269, according to present ISOGG nomeclature”

      I see that you are obsessed with Molgen, and if you allow me some advice, I would change your obsession and dedicate to studying a bit of genetics and European Prehistory, because your knowledge is very scarce and superficial. If your conclusion about the genetic makeup of these cultures is that the Gimbutas hypothesis has been confirmed, I think you don’t understand a word about what’s going on.

      • Reich and company, and other people, knew about the existence of J in Khavlynsk, so there was the turn regarding the origin of IE and place it south of the Caucasus, and in the process solve the problem of the Hittites and Mycenaeans (all of them J) looking for a more coherent genetic explanation to the expansion of IE.

      Talking about mass migration today has become a joke that only the most ultrakurganist fans can accept. There is nothing more absurd than to think that with this variation of haplogroups in the steppes, the explosion of R1a and P312 in mainland europe can be related to massive population movements.

      The elimination of Khvalynsk as a candidate to be the source of these migrations is an additional problem for the Kurgan theory because I hope nobody expects us to believe that there was a customs office in Hungary and that those who had a passport with Q or J did not could go to mainland Europe.

      A few months ago some intelligent people realized that the fallacy of migrations from the Yamnaya culture could not be maintained for longer. Genetics has spoken, and unless a miracle occurs in the form of L51 the future of this lineage will be linked to Western Europe. Now Khvalynsk turns out to be a conglomerate of haplogroups (with R1a in minor francity in addition) that also has not been identified until 2,900 BC in Central Europe, had to remain without moving from the steppes for hundreds of years.

      Regarding the CHG, I suppose that you will all have read Sikora, but it is also clear that the expansion of this ancestry from the South Caucasus had two directions, the first along Anatolia to Europe and the second to the north, the two linked to the male haplogroup J. at different historical moments and with different intensity.

      The paper that we have commented recently on the tocharian is a clear example of scientific fudge with evidence of lack of knowledge, lack of dedication and lack of intelligence to draw correct conclusions. The same can be said of the papers of Haak (massive migrations) and Olalde (European BBs). They are authentic fudge with misused data to square theories that have proved absurd. The next thing will be to end the myth of the steppe ancestry, first called Yamnaya ancestr, and of course apologize.
      August 3, 2019 at 4:02 AM

      Gaska said…
      Please Juan, have you thought we are idiots? When Q1a, or J has been found in the Neolithic or Chalcolithic of Central or Western Europe?. Can you cite a single case? You cannot mix the expansion of haplogroups at present with the hypothetical migration of any steppe culture such as khvalynsk Sredni Stog, Repin, Yamnaya etc. What happened to those J or Q1a men from Khvalynsk or Yamnaya? they simply had no offspring? did not have the passport in order ?, did not know how to ride a horse ?. Didn’t they have a driving license? They were slaves of P312 and R1a-M417 they were uglier than the R1b and the R1a and the women ignored them. Come on man, you just have to look for other explanations, mass migrations are a tease.
      August 3, 2019 at 4:23 AM

      Davidski said…
      @Suyindik

      The penetrating Southern Groups(From Mesopotamia, Caucasus and Iran), who consisted of haplogroups G, J, L and T brought their Kurgan culture and replaced the native cultures of the Pre Neolithic Steppe.

      Are you on drugs or something?

      There’s no G, J, L or T in any of the steppe populations commonly associated with the proto-Indo-European expansions.

      So who got replaced? Why did R1a-M417 spread with Corded Ware and Sintashta? Why did Yamnaya males belong to R1b-Z2103? Where are the foreign haplogroups that you’re seeing?

      Can you point out the specific samples? List them here.
      August 4, 2019 at 3:08 AM

      zardos said…
      „If ethnicity and y chromosomes were the ultimate trump card with respect to the transmission of language then you would not be able to explain populations like the Basques and others. Transmission of a technology like bronze making would almost necessitate a 1 way transmission of language from teacher to student.”

      It just means part of the BBC was not IE. I don’t know how this happened, but as in earlier posts, there are 3 options:
      1. Not all Yamnaya related groups moving West were IE speakers from the start.
      2. A Yamnaya group was hijacked by a local lineage before reaching Iberia
      3. A steppe influenced Beaker group was in Iberia or North of it assimilated by the original BB culture and adopted its language.

      Regardless of how it happened, the BBs speaking a different language differed in more than their speach, so its again an ethnic difference.

      Ethnicity in material culture is more closely related to style and tradition, rather than technological innovation. Just because two groups adopted metal working, doesn’t mean that they were the same otherwise. Therefore its indeed the complete package defining the classic IE expansion. And this package was born on the steppe, carried on by the IE ethnicity, possibly by others too – as in later times with Turkic and Mongol people adopting large part of it.
      August 4, 2019 at 3:18 AM

      Drago said…
      What people don’t seem to be able to face, however, is that it is now almost certain that Yamnaya was not I.E.
      Let’s examine the ”Yamnaya clan”/ M269 impacts
      – Afansievo – extinct
      – Catacomb- some dispersion & assimilation into other cultures (e.g. Haji Firuz), before it got replaced by North Caucasian speakers (which have nothing to do with Majkop, was Anthony wrongly claims), but during new, LBA arrivals
      – Yamnaya west – BB -> Atlantic / Vasconic Europe
      Im sure northern Italy, will seal the deal.
      August 4, 2019 at 4:04 PM

      Davidski said…
      Well, I for one, no longer have a PIE homeland theory. I’m just not satisfied with any of the explanations that I’ve seen. Some scenarios do look more plausible than others, but none are especially meaningful considering all of the data.

      I’m waiting for more data points and more tangible clues so I can figure it out for myself.
      August 4, 2019 at 5:01 PM

      Polubienie

    • zardos said…
      Basques are closest to what one may consider a direct, unbroken link to Bell Beakers. They are/were closest physically even. They are BB descendents.

      Now look at the rest of France in comparison and both genetics and physical traits formed a Celtic and Germanic influenced Northern and a more Neolithic, Greek and Roman South.

      Basques deviate strongly from both of these IE speakers while being closest to BB with one of the highest R1b frequencies in the world. I really doubt that this is a mere coincidence, actually it would be completely illogical to assume that.

      So we have to consider the simple fact that what defined later, attested IE speakers genetically and physically, was introduced to the West later and was different from BB. As we can see from France the Vasconic sphere of stronger influence extended further North.

      Now this could all be because one branch of steppe BB was hijacked or converted by another group of people in the West. But right now that BB were no IE speakers is somewhat more likely.

      Really important is to find out were exactly CWC came up and how the transition from CWC and BBC to Unetice took place imho. But even later transitions must be examined, because any change could indicate a significant expansion of a different people.

      Italy is really big and I want to know which exact haplogroups were present in Italic speakers.

      There is no reason to assume all steppe derived groups spoke IE. It may well have been only the direct ancestors of CW did.
      August 5, 2019 at 1:56 AM

      Davidski said…
      There’s R1a in Steppe Maykop actually…
      SA6013.B0101 Sharakhalsun 6 Steppe Maykop outlier R-M459
      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wkLjTA856nW6On8Q10U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit?usp=sharing
      August 5, 2019 at 3:02 AM

      Samuel Andrews said…
      I’m starting to find this debate silly. The debate ended 2 years ago. Don’t forget Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker all descend from the same recent common ancestor on the Eneolithic Steppe. They aren’t as distinct as they might seem. It’s obvious this ancestor they all descended from were the proto-Indo Europeans.

      Corded Ware & R1a M417 in general for sure spoke IE. Because…
      -Baltic Corded Ware were the proto-Balto Slavs.
      -Andronovo were the proto-Indo Iranians.

      What about other IE languages? Well, ancient Myceneans (early Greeks) had Steppe admix. It is fair to say that’s where their Indo European language came from.

      Bell beaker descendants invaded Italy during the Bronze age. Later, we see many Iron age Italians spoke Indo European languages.

      I don’t dispute that Basque language existed in Spain before Celtic did. Celtic is an Iron age language. But, this does not mean that pre-Iron age languages of France & British Isles were non-Indo European.

      Neolithic survival in Iron age Spain was very high as it was in Iron age Italy. This can easily explain the existence of non-IE languages in Spain, Italy.

      Is anyone supposing Celtic derives from R1a M417 Corded Ware? If so where’s the R1a in western Europe? 100% of the first Y DNA from Celtic France is all R1b. The first Celtic Y DNA from central Europe is also R1b. Whoever, the proto-Celts were they were certainly descendants of Bell beaker. This nicely explains the relationship between Italic & Celtic.
      August 5, 2019 at 3:03 AM

      Gaska said…
      I see that much of the debate is once again centered on the Basque question, and since I am Basque, it may be interesting that you take my opinion into account. Also so that you do not think that we are ultranationalists or ultraracists, the first thing I have to say is that the Basques are not the main problem for the PIE Homeland, not only because their origin in the current Spanish territory is not clear (maybe we entered during the Iron Age) but because we have no idea what the territory they really occupied during the Bronze and Iron ages was.

      1- Nor are the Tartesians a big problem, because we can only make more or less accurate specifications about their language (and I think it will be very difficult for the linguists to end up deciphering it)

      2-The real and most interesting issue centers on the Iberians because their relationship with the Basque/Aquitanian is accepted by many Spanish and French linguist experts. It was also spoken throughout the south of France to the Rhone River, in fact in Herault a large number of Iberian inscriptions have been found that have helped to decipher part of the language, And also this territory is mostly R1b-P312.

      3-As Zardos and others have said, genetic continuity is super evident in Spain. There is no population in the world (except for our Irish, Scottish and English) friends who can boast like the Basques and the rest of Spaniards of being the direct descendants of the men and women who developed BB culture in Europe. And in addition to this genetic continuity, it turns out that neither our Iberian Aquitans or Tartesians ancestors spoke IE languages, nor the thrust of the IE languages ​​have succeeded in ending the last NO-IE language in Europe.

      4- The Kurganist vision of European prehistory has caused the debate to focus on finding all kinds of more or less intelligent explanations to solve the problems posed by the need to justify the origin of R1b, the IE language, etc. etc. in the steppes .

      5-Many archaeologists and some Spanish geneticists see it in an absolutely different way- The BB culture is totally western, it has absolutely nothing to do with the steppes and through small migrations of both men and women it was extended to small settlements in Hungary and Poland where they stopped the Indo-European expansion of the CWC and R1a- For us the debate is over, you will understand that for many of us who do not speak IE languages, we do not care much about the territorial origin of that linguistic family. I explained it many times in Anthrogenica and that is why they banned me in that blog. Since January Davidski has tried to explain that the Yamnaya culture only reached the Tizsa river and that the Hungarian BBs are a mixture of Central Europeans BB, Yamnaya and Neolithic farmers, basically the same as I defend years ago.
      August 5, 2019 at 5:27 AM

      Gaska said…
      I am going to give you an example of what is happening; I am Df27/Z225, This lineage has been found in a site of the late BB culture in Herviás (La Rioja, 1.800 BC) near the current border with Alava where my family is originally and which obviously has always spoken in Basque and Spanish. The following Z225 has been found in a site of the Iberian people of the Ilerkavones in the province of Castellón (Spanish Mediterranean Coast, 600 BC), where hundreds of ceramic pieces written in Iberian have also been found. What can I think? Obviously, my ancestors have never spoken an IE language because genetic continuity is evident and because we also have WRITTEN EVIDENCE. Now everyone tries to convince me that in reality the BB culture did not originate in Iberia, and that the father of Z225 or the father of Df27 or the father of P312 (which on the other hand have only been found in Western Europe), spoke an IE language that was also spoken in the steppes where Obviously our origins have to be. And they try to do it

      1-not knowing what language was spoken in the steppes
      2-without having found my lineage in the steppes
      3-without having scientific evidence that BB culture originated outside of Iberia

      I repeat if there is any doubt about what I think, R1b-L51 is Western, the BB culture is Western and spoke a Neolithic language NO-IE (Anatolian, Sardinian / Iberian / Vasconic / Aquitanian or whatever you wanted to call it)

      I personally think that the only lineage clearly linked to the steppes and IE is R1a (and that, despite its shortage in Khvalynsk and its absence in Yamanya). Only a founder effect can explain its situation in Central Europe
      August 5, 2019 at 6:05 AM

      zardos said…
      @Gaska: The problem is that we have to explain the appearance of attested IE in former BB territory. I see a fairly big change happening after BB, but the impact was not as big as the BB expansion itself before. And it seems it happened, to a large degree, from within BB-related people.

      So we deal with an assimilation of a BB branch in Southern France becoming non-IE or with an assimilation of BB branches in Central Europe becoming IE.

      In Iberia the non-IE maternal influence was huge, but little happened on the usually more important paternal side.
      In Central Europe and the Celts on the other hand we have a paternal impact of significance, but no replacement and the further West you go, the less. This could have been a wave-like phenomenon, but that is not that much more likely as an Franko-Iberian conversion by old BB masters from Iberia probably. So to me its really undecided.

      If R1b is completely of local pre-steppe origin, the later conversion from Central Europe is much more likely though. Because that would avoid the problem of a language shift in patrilineage without external pressure. It could also better explain why some BB and R1b lineages might have adopted IE under steppe influence, while others just retained their non-IE mother tongue.
      August 5, 2019 at 6:48 AM

      Polubienie

    • Gaska said…
      @zardos said-„So we deal with an assimilation of a BB branch in Southern France becoming non-IE or with an assimilation of BB branches in Central Europe becoming IE”

      Yes, totally agree. Even that same situation can occur within the Iberian Peninsula and of course in Italy.

      I will try to explain it- That same genetic continuity between the BB culture and the Iberians-NO-IE, can occur in certain peoples such as vettones, vacceos or cantabrians. That is, if the linguists end up demonstrating that these peoples spoke an older IE language (NOT Celtiberian), then we would have in these peoples the same genetic continuity in the uniparental markers between the BB culture and at least the end of the Bronze Age (1,000 BC). That is why some Spanish geneticists have begun to gather skeletons (the only ones that are preserved are children) from the vettones and the vacceos during the Iron Age (1000-200 BC). If those markers were Df27 then we would have in Iberia, descendants of the BBs who would speak both IE and non-IE languages ​​and the puzzle would be even more complicated. As you will see I am being totally honest in the approach, and I recognize that anything can happen.

      But currently, in addition to the data that the ancient DNA is offering us, we have to try to solve the archaeological problem, and for us, Iberian migrations to the rest of the BB regions is a proven fact. So far and as long as we do not have data from the vettones and vacceos during the Iron Age, we must assume that it is much simpler for the P312-Central-European BBs to adopt the CWC’s own language either because of exogamy or simply because of its small number in those regions.

      That explanation is simpler and more coherent because in addition P312 is so far absolutely western with the oldest cases in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands and Alsace, so it is possible that he spoke a NO-IE language and simply adopted an IE language by influence of the CWC- This would undoubtedly complicate Davidski’s theory of finding P312 in the SGC, because if this were so, this lineage would have a close origin in the steppes and obviously speak an IE language. For that reason, and for the lack of Archaeological and genetic evidence at the moment I cannot admit that L51 or P312 was hidden in any branch of the CWC.
      August 5, 2019 at 1:00 PM

      Gaska said…
      @Matt-
      I don’t know what you think, but I think nobody is trying to take the Basque to the steppes, the problem is that the obsession to link certain lineages (in this case R1b) with certain languages ​​(in this case IE) It has led us to a dead end. Obviously the IE language must have an equidistant origin with respect to its Asian and European derivatives and for that reason everyone thinks about the steppes, Anatolia or the South Caucasus. In our case, we simply think that Iberian/Aquitanian/Euzkera is a Neolithic language (or perhaps earlier), linked to the European Neolithic population of any culture, because the genetic and cultural similarity in Europe is amazing (remember for example the megalithic culture) and we did not find significant differences to justify the existence of different languages ​​(mainly due to the great mobility of the population and exogamy).

      Imagine a European-Vasconic language linked to all the at least Western Neolithic cultures, including the BBC), any uniparental marker that arrived (in one way or another) to those cultures would end up speaking that language regardless of its origin (even the steppes). But for that, the first thing we must do is show that there were no massive migratory movements or conquests, only small population movements and then massive founder effects of certain male lineages.
      August 5, 2019 at 1:15 PM

      Gaska said…
      @am Andrews-„I’m starting to find this debate silly. The debate ended 2 years ago. Don’t forget Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker all descend from the same recent common ancestor on the Eneolithic Steppe. They aren’t as distinct as they might seem. It’s obvious this ancestor they all descended from were the proto-Indo Europeans”

      Ja Ja Ja
      August 5, 2019 at 1:35 PM

      FrankN said…
      As to the ancientness of (pre-pre-)PIE, let me exemplify it on a specific feature (this is also meant as a sort of delayed repsonse to Matt, who a couple of days ago questionned the usefulness of grammatical/ morphological comparisons vis-a-vis lexical ones).

      This feature is grammatical gender (thx to Kristiina for drawing my attention to it). PIE is unique in this respect among all major language families (I can’t exclude the possibility that one day somewhere on New Guinea a language with similar features pops up, but even then every serious linguist would immediately check whether it is some PIE relative.)

      1. Presence of grammatical gender alone already sets PIE apart from roughly half of the world’s language families. This concerns of course all isolating languages (e.g. Sinitic, Austronesian), but also many synthetic languages including Kartvelian, Uralic, Altaic, Hurro-Urartian, and most Austro-Asiatic languages except for the Munda familiy.
      2. PIE expressed grammatical gender by suffixing, in contrast to pre-fixing (nominal class-based) families such as North Caucasian or Niger-Congo.

      3. Gender marking was fusional, i.e. merged with other markers (numerus, case) into an inseparatable unit. This sets it apart from agglutinative languages w. grammatical gender, e.g. Dravidian, in which each category (gender, case, numerus) is expressed by a separate affix.

      4. PIE’s grammatical gender was sex-based, in contrast to the animate-inanimate distinction a/o employed by Chukotko-Kamchatkan, many Amerindian languages (Algic, Siouan, Uto-Aztecan etc.), Sumerian and Elamite, or more complex mixed gender/animateness systems as e.g. found in Burushaki and many Pama-Nyungan languages.

      5. The last remaining major family, namely Afro-Asiatic, with which PIE shares all a/m criteria, finally, differs in that it only distinguishes masculine-feminine, while PIE also had a neuter gender.

      Now, none of the above was/is set in stone. Some IE languages, most prominently English, have almost completely abolished grammatical gender (#1) except for pronouns. Several others (especially Romance) have lost the neuter (#5). Gender-differentiated articles (a/o Romance, Germanic) may be considered as a shift towards gender-prefixing (#2); Welsh even varies the initial consonant according to gender. West Slavic, finally, appears to have introduced an additional animate-inanimate distinction (#4). However, most of these changes are rather recent – grammatical gender, e.g. was still present in Old English, and Latin had a neuter.

      It appears that PIE’s way of gender marking was stable for some 4,000 years or longer, which may provide some indication on how long it took pre-PIE to develop this unique feature.
      August 6, 2019 at 12:42 PM

      Polubienie

    • Milan said…
      @old europe
      Vinca and Lepenski Vir (Serbia) are the PIE homeland. PIE language is the Vinca’s Serbian language.
      August 7, 2019 at 2:05 AM

      Milan said…
      R1A in Serbia is 12000 years old, in Europe 7000 years, in Russia about 4500 years, India 3850 years.
      August 7, 2019 at 2:53 AM

      Davidski said…
      @Milan
      Show me R1a from the Balkans older than 4,000 years or I’ll ban you. You have a couple of hours.
      August 7, 2019 at 2:55 AM

      Milan said…
      @Davidski Free pdf (for e.g. map on p.19)

      http://www.pollitecon.com/html/ebooks/Where-the-Slovens-and-Indo-Europeans-Came-From-DNA-Genealogy-provides-the-Answer.pdf

      Cheers
      August 7, 2019 at 3:14 AM

      Davidski said…
      @All
      Milan is now banned from this blog. Banned commentators list
      August 7, 2019 at 3:28 AM

      …..

      Ciekawe co na to wyznawcy byłej południowej drogi R1a, których nazw litościwie nie wymienię…

      Przy okazji Kliosov tym czymś udowodnił już w 2008, że nie można go traktować poważnie…

      Polubienie

    • Gaska said…
      For the linguistic debate, what really matters is to finish finding out (once and for all) the exact genetic component of all steppe cultures. and in this sense the panorama is complicated as ancient genomes are published. If we think that Khvalynsk uniparental markers data is true (although I think we still do not know to which subclades of R1b that majority of Khvalynsk men belong), we have that this culture is also a mixture of male lineages from the Caucasus (J) , Asia (Q1a), the steppes (R1a, R1b) etc. If this culture also does not have autosomal components from Neolithic farmers because it is supposedly a „pure” or „basal” CHG, and if we also take into account that theoretically this ancestry only appears in mainland Europe from the year 3000 BC with the CWC, then only the Yamnaya culture remains as a source of expansion of the IE language towards Europe

      Yamnaya is a more farmer shifted fusion of Progress & Khvalynsk, and the source of the ANF shift must be, GAC, Majkop or Cucuteni groups-This means that this culture is even more mixed than Khvalynsk, so more than a source of influences it seems their destiny. This culture only lasted 700 years (3,300-2,600 BC) and for now we only have R1b-Z2013, R1b.V1636 and I2a (correct me if I’m wrong). On the other hand, we have Z2013 and I2a in the eastern BBs and we have to assume that R1a (CWC) comes from Yamnaya, and we also know that Central Europeans BBs only have about 10% of steppe mitochondrial lineages (arrived through the CWC).

      With this data, can anyone really think that the Yamnaya culture and the male and female lineages linked to it could produce a total linguistic change in a continent inhabited by at least two million people? Are we serious?

      Are you going to continue defending that L51 is hidden in some subculture of the CWC, that later one or several small clans of this lineage kidnapped the BB culture and then kidnapped the languages ​​of Western Neolithic farmers? What the hell are we talking about?

      If the subclades of R1b in Khvalynsk (we are going to leave the problem of R1a, in minority in that culture, and disappeared in Yamnaya for now) turn out to be R1b-L23/L51/P312 then our discussions will be over, but in the meantime, the Steppe cultures do not seem capable of having produced the great genetic and linguistic changes that everyone seems to see. I can be wrong and of course if this happens I will have to acknowledge it publicly, but so far everything seems like a fairy tale.
      August 10, 2019 at 1:30 AM

      Gaska said…
      Zardos is right, if the situation in Iberia has been complicated by the affairs of the Basques/Iberians and the results of the Iron Age, I imagine what can happen when studies of Italy and especially those of southern France are published because, both the Etruscans- Aquitaine and Occitania are absolutely NO-IE. If we add to this that the Mycenaeans and Hittites so far are J, then can someone explain to me the link between R1b-P312 with the steppes and the IE language? are we kidding?

      We will see what happens with genetic continuity in Central Europe during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, but, for God’s sake, the only Spanish Celtiberian analyzed is I2a, I suppose Hallstatt and Tene will have an important genetic mix because Central Europe (unlike Iberia, Italy or the British Isles, which are remote places and therefore the last places where genetic, cultural, technical or linguistic developments can arrive) has to be a kind of genetic shaker. Undoubtedly the expansion of IE languages ​​has to be much later (Bronze Age, Iron Age), forget the BB culture as a factor of dispersion.

      We have talked little about Vk531 in Norway (R1b1a1.2.400 BC) without a gram of steppe ancestry, maybe everyone is looking in the wrong direction.
      August 10, 2019 at 1:37 AM

      Gaska said…
      @AWood-„Also, poster Gaska keeps emphasizing that Z2103 and L51 having „nothing to do with each other”, which is pretty much impossible since they have a common ancestor 700 years earlier, probably the western steppes or the Carpathians”

      Exactly-NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER- We have been listening to Kurganists for years to tell us that R1bL51 etc. will appear in any steppe culture, now it seems that you have moved a little to the West and already think of an origin in the Carpathians for L51-

      As I am not a fortune teller I cannot know what will happen in the future, but I bet on an origin in any of the German or French Neolithic cultures, even in the Baltic Countries where you have R1b in abundance (70% WHG and 30% EHG). Where do you think the R1b samples have come in the steppes? from Siberia?, and what explanation do we give to all the R1b of Europe (Italy, France, Latvia, Romania even Norway), all extinct? Come on, Aaron, the Kurgan theory has the days counted, and the longer you recognize it, the harder the fall will be.

      Only a massive founder effect of R1a in the CWC and L51 in Western Europe can explain what we are seeing. And the big question is, could this founder effect not only provoke, but maintain throughout the millennia the percentages of steppe ancestry that all Europeans apparently have? Olalde and Haak tell us that the steppe ancestry is only linked to R1b-M269. Ok, what happened to the other haplogroups of the steppes? They also went extinct?. Why is there no Q1a or J in Central and Western Europe during the chalcolithic? The influence of Neolithic farmers in Yamnaya is important enough to take it into account, did this genetic flow have linguistic consequences? It had the cultural influence of Maykop linguistic influences?. The more genomes published, the more doubts arise.

      This makes the debate increasingly interesting, and at least the dogma of the steppes has become a mini-dogma questioned by more and more independent people.
      August 11, 2019 at 8:19 AM

      Polubienie

  5. S, czy w komentarzach jest coś nowego bo ja mam wrażenie że w kółko bleblają to samo jak i ja z tobą od czasu do czasu.
    “I personally think that the only lineage clearly linked to the steppes and IE is R1a (and that, despite its shortage in Khvalynsk and its absence in Yamanya).”
    Rzeczywiście tylko to jest jasne. I nic poza tym.
    PS Czy słowo rebiata, rebionok (dzieci, dziecko) pochodzi of źrebię?

    Polubienie

    • Gaska pisze znów bardzo dobrze. Zardos także. W skrócie chodzi o fielkogermańskie neonzizmy Reicha z J, jako „indo-germańską” haplogrupą z południa Skałkazu. To jest obecnie oficjalnie pchana narracja. Nie żartuję.

      Wybrałem jak zwykle tylko najciekawsze komentarze. Dawidski chyba na dobre ugrzązł z pra-baskijskim / jakby kartwelskim Yamna R1b (wygląda mi na Po-Villabruna WHG?), jako rzekomym przodkiem EHG R1a w CWC. To prawda, że wszyscy kręcą się w kółko, bo poprawność polityczna nie pozwala im na zerknięcie nawet w stronę EHG, jako „pra-indo-europejskiego” i nie pochodzącego od pierwszych rolników z Anatolii. Patrz jak do faktów, które przedstawiłem podeszli i Rudawe i Histslov. To ta sama wstydliwa dziecięca choroba. To wypala się albo wycina żelazem, gorącym lub ostrym, jak to robiem ja.

      To jest podsumowanie wiedzy na połowę roku 2019. Ja tam na Twoim miejscu przeczytałbym to, co zamieściłem, bo wtedy będziesz miała obraz jak wygląda ten naukowy marsz w miejscu.

      Co do (Z)ReB+iaTa, no to powinszować ucha i logiki. Brawo!

      Co do wstępu do książki. Napisz mi na jaki adres mam wysłać Ci jego szkic do oceny. To samo dotyczy Roberta. A i na koniec. Ja nie kolebię się. Ja jeśli już to utrwalam mom wiedzę i wadzę ludowom, którom tyż tu mom.

      Polubienie

      • Do środy wieczorem dostaniesz „wstęp” i tyle więcej z tego co ma być dalej, ile zdołam poukładać.

        Wróciłem już z wakacji i biorę się za robotę, ale mam i inne pilne sprawy też. Trochę przez wakacje popracowałem nad „wstępem” i tym, co z niego ma wynikać. Mam przygotowane za dużo materiału, więc muszę uważnie ograniczać wszystko, żeby nie zamulić. Nie zdradzę Ci nic więcej na razie, bo jestem ciekaw, czy domyślisz się z tego co dostaniesz, o co mi chodzi i jak chcę to poprowadzić…

        Polubienie

    • „Czy słowo rebiata, rebionok (dzieci, dziecko) pochodzi of źrebię?”

      Faktycznie to będzie od tego, gdy się to widzi, wychodzi, ze to jest wręcz trywialne.

      Tak samo jak kiedyś zorientowałem sie, ze ich ‚zowut’ jest naszym ‚zowią’ czyli zwą, nazywają.. czyli tak mam na imię.
      Mienia zowut = mnie zowią

      Polubienie

    • No tak. Trza całować go w środek pupci teraz z potężnym odsysem, patrz np.:

      (…) Nie ulega jednak wątpliwości, że Bałtowie w pewnym stopniu uczestniczyli w etnogenezie Słowian, o czym świadczy nie tylko bliskość leksyczna tych dwóch grup języków, ale także toponimika i hydronimika bałtycka na terytorium Polski, na przykład nazwa grzbietu górskiego Sudety na terenie Polski, Niemiec i Czech, która pochodzi od litewskiego słowa „sudetis”. (…)

      Temu mendrcu powinnaś napisać, żeby siem polskamu trudnamu językamu nauczył, bo „bliskość leksyczna tych dwóch grup języków, ale także toponimika i hydronimika” wskazuje, że potrza mu tego i to bardzo. Jak masz czas, no ta sama se sprawdź do czego piję, jeśli jeszcze nie wiesz. Tak se o tym piszę, bo to rozbawiło Mię.

      Tu masz litewskie, starożytne słowo:
      https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud%C4%97tis
      https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodawanie

      Tu masz ciekawostkę pełną wtórnych ubezdźwięcznień, patrz:

      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sudetis
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sudo#Latin

      Etymology
      From Proto-Indo-European *sweyd-.

      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sweyd-

      Proto-Indo-European
      Root
      *sweyd-[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
      sweat
      to sweat

      (…)
      Ancient Greek: ῑ̓δίω (īdíō)
      Indo-Iranian: *swáydati
      Indo-Aryan: *swáydati
      Sanskrit: स्वेदते (svédate)
      (…)
      Germanic: *switjaną
      Indo-Iranian: *swídyati
      Indo-Aryan: *swídyati
      Sanskrit: स्विद्यति (svídyati)
      (…)
      Tocharian B: syā-
      (…)
      Hellenic: *éidos
      Ancient Greek: εἶδος (eîdos), ἶδος (îdos)
      (…)
      Albanian: *(ui)dertśiā (< *swid-ro-t-yeh₂)
      Albanian: djersë
      Armenian:
      Old Armenian: քիրտն (kʿirtn)
      Armenian: քրտինք (kʿrtinkʿ)
      (…)
      Balto-Slavic:
      Latvian: sviêdri
      Hellenic:
      Ancient Greek: ῑ̔δρώς (hīdrṓs)
      (…)
      Celtic: *swissos
      Brythonic:
      Middle Breton: hues
      Breton: c’huès, c’hwès
      Cornish: hwys
      Middle Welsh: chuis
      Welsh: chwys
      (…)
      Germanic: *swaitaz, *swaitą, *swaitô
      Indo-Iranian: *swáydas
      Indo-Aryan: *swáydas
      Sanskrit: स्वेद (svéda)
      Iranian: *hwáydah
      Avestan: 𐬑𐬬𐬀𐬉𐬛𐬀‎ (xvaēda)
      Baluchi: ہید‎ (hed)
      Kurdish: xuh, xwêdan
      Middle Persian: 𐭧𐭥𐭩𐭣‎ (xwēy)
      Persian: خوی‎ (xway)

      Widzisz, czy mom Ci to rzucić w oczi?

      A tu masz to, czego oficjalni przeciw-logiczni, przeciw-słowiańscy naziści i słowianofobowie nie znajo:

      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/sw%C4%85d
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sw%C4%85d
      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/sw%C4%99dzi%C4%87
      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/sw%C4%99dzenie#pl

      Gdzie nie poskrobię, tam zawsze wychodzi jedno i to samo. WTÓRNE UBEZDŹWIĘCZNIENIE! :-0

      To jest prawo językowe i jest to bardzo nielubiane przez wszystkich kłamczuszków, bo jedno słowo tłumaczy wszystko.

      …..

      https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudety

      (…) Nazwa
      Nazwa Sudety pochodzi z II w. n.e. Po raz pierwszy użyto jej w Grecji (astronom Klaudiusz Ptolemeusz, autor Wstępu do geografii), umieszczając na mapie Germanii Wielkiej i Sarmacji. Zachodnią część tych gór Ptolemeusz nazwał grc. τὰ Σούδητα ὄρη[3], Soudeta ore (Geographia, Księga 2, Chapter 10), la. Suditi montes: „Suditi montes; sub quibus est Cabrita silva, inter quos in Sarmaticos monteis est saltus Hercynius”. W czasach późniejszych używana była nazwa Góry Czeskie[4].

      Na temat pochodzenia nazwy „Sudety”[5] nie ma wśród naukowców jednoznacznej opinii, większość opowiada się jednak za celtyckim jej pochodzeniem. Wyraz „Sudéta” posiada rdzeń „sud” oznaczający dzika oraz przyrostek „-éta” oznaczający las. Pierwotne znaczenie mogło więc brzmieć jako las dzików lub las dzikich świń.

      Niektóre opracowania podają również źródła literackie nazwy. Po raz pierwszy nazwa Sudetów pojawiła się w 150 (lub 130) roku n.e. Geograf Klaudiusz Ptolemeusz na swojej mapie Europy środkowej zaznaczył „Sudéta óre” dla określenia rejonu Rudaw Janowickich i przyległych masywów górskich. Ten sam autor w swoim dziele Geographica Hyptegensis stosował nazwę „Sudéta Montés”. Ponieważ osadnictwo celtyckie (tzw. oppida) rozwijało się tu w II i I wieku p.n.e., można przyjąć, że nazwa Sudetów przetrwała do czasów Ptolemeusza wśród mieszkańców tych terenów. (…)

      Ten „celtycki rdzeń sud” może chodzić o np. SieDz+a”Ce, Co’D+Ne lub SyTe góry.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetes

      (…) Etymology
      The name Sudetes is derived from Sudeti montes, a Latinization of the name Soudeta ore used in the Geographia by the Greco-Roman writer Ptolemy (Book 2, Chapter 10) c. AD 150 for a range of mountains in Germania in the general region of the modern Czech republic.

      There is no consensus about which mountains he meant, and he could for example have intended the Ore Mountains, joining the modern Sudetes to their west, or even (according to Schütte) the Bohemian Forest (although this is normally considered to be equivalent to Ptolemy’s Gabreta forest).[3] The modern Sudetes are probably Ptolemy’s Askiburgion mountains.[4]

      Ptolemy wrote „Σούδητα” in Greek, which is a neuter plural. Latin mons, however, is a masculine, hence Sudeti. The Latin version, and the modern geographical identification, is likely to be a scholastic innovation, as it is not attested in classical Latin literature. The meaning of the name is not known. In one hypothetical derivation, it means Mountains of Wild Boars, relying on Indo-European *su-, „pig”. A better etymology perhaps is from Latin sudis, plural sudes, „spines”, which can be used of spiny fish or spiny terrain. (…)

      https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetai

      (…) Sudetų ilgis iš šiaurės vakarų į pietryčius apie 300 km, vidutinis plotis apie 50 km. Didžiausias aukštis 1603 m (Snežkos kalnas Krkonošių kalnagūbryje). (…)

      Skunds temsu menrczus wzięłos siems „sudetis” nos tos nis wims, ales cos tams. Ważnes, żes zs pewnościoms piszes, cos piszes. Jesteśmys Baskonamis pomieszanymis zs Bałtamis. Is genetykas tos pewnos potfirdzos.

      (…) Ciekawe co na to Gaska powie? (…)

      Chybas tos cos jas, ales ws waskijskims. 🙂

      Polubienie

      • „Wyraz „Sudéta” posiada rdzeń „sud” oznaczający dzika oraz przyrostek „-éta” oznaczający las”

        Co za łosie, podzieli sobie nazwę własną jak im było wygodniej, gdy patrząc na to od strony rdzeniowości
        SuDeTy, SouDeTa, SuDiTi mają rdzeń S.D.T, a szczególnie ostatnia wersja wprost naprowadzana na siedzący

        mamy to we wszystkich językach europejskich, poza fińskim baskijskim i hiszpańskim, jako np.
        słoweński: (1.1) sedeti
        litewski: (1.1) sėdėti; (1.3) sėdėti
        czeski: (1.1) sedět

        To czeskie SeDeT wprost jest SuDeT

        Polubienie

        • Co do nazwy Sudety no to dla mnie, to może być coś pokrewnego z Sączem. Które wyłazi w sądeckim. Sądecczyzna czyli ziemia sądecka i ziemia sudecka.
          Zobacz na roka i ranka, u naszych „półprzodków” Bałtów. U jednych „o’ u drugich „an”, ale nikt nie ma wątpliwości że oba oznaczają rękę.

          Może to być od sun, słoneczne. Albo south, albo sdjes czyli sjuda.( сюдa) W rosyjskiej etymologii – tutejsze.

          Polubienie

          • Sącz to tulko nazwa wioski, osady, która rozrosła się do miasta, a nie pasma gór,
            Gdyby była góry Sądety, to mozna by brać je pod uwagę.

            Sudety od Sediti- siedzący, to jest to samo co ” sjuda.( сюдa)” jako tutejszy, w znaczeniu …. za-siedziały.

            Polubienie

  6. Czy możemy w wolnym czasie obgadać zmiany dźwięków?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws
    Przeglądam sobie pierwszą tabelę z tej strony. Tak w ogóle.
    No i sobie myślę, że dźwięk t u Hetytów i Tocharów pozostał bez większych zmian „t”, ale u jednych jak i drugich obowiązywała zasada zmiany dźwięku „Before a (PIE) front vowel (i, *e)” w z [ts] i c [c].
    To mogła być istotna cecha w PIE – zamiana t >> [ts] [c]. W koncu Tocharom przypisuje się oddalenie od PIE ojczyzny w 4 tysiącleciu pne. Więc skoro w 2 najdawniej rozbieżnych gałęziach jest wspólna (podobna) „innowacja” to znaczy że była to zasada w PIE.
    BSy wg autorów nie posiadają tej cechy. Ale wszystkie poza łaciną zachowały poza zwykłym t jakiś jego zamiennik przedstawiany przez autorów th [t̪ʰ], albo θ, albo th [θ], albo þ [θ].
    Powiedz mi, skoro BSy nie zmieniają dźwieku, to kim my jesteśmy?
    Skąd mamy Ty >> Ciebie, Tok >> Ciek?

    Następna jest „k”. a właściwie jej rzekome 3 postacie.
    Moja ulubiona „k” z kreseczką zmiękczająca na górze – *ḱ.
    Bardzo ale to bardzo chciałabym wiedzieć jak autorzy tego miękkiego k je wymawiają.
    Bo wg tabeli mówcy kentum nie odróżniają miękkiego k od zwykłego k. Poza Tocharami którzy mają k i ś [ɕ]. Germanie nie są kentum, z prostego powodu – nie maja żadnego K. Ani jednej PIE postaci.
    Zaś ci, co rzekomo miękkie k zachowali, czyli satemowcy wymawiają je „s”, „ś”, „š”. Dla mnie to głoski należące do dźwięku S-podobnych.
    Czy autorzy nie pomyśleli, że PIE mógł mieć miękkie S a nie K?
    Bo dla *s autorzy przewidzieli tylko 1 postać – S. I nic więcej.

    Polubienie

    • (…) To mogła być istotna cecha w PIE – zamiana t >> [ts] [c]. W koncu Tocharom przypisuje się oddalenie od PIE ojczyzny w 4 tysiącleciu pne. Więc skoro w 2 najdawniej rozbieżnych gałęziach jest wspólna (podobna) „innowacja” to znaczy że była to zasada w PIE. (…)

      Eee… Wniosek z dupci wymięty! Pomyśl, dlaczego tzw. rough breathing zawsze działa, czyli dlaczego wtórne ubezdźwięcznienie zawsze działa, a teraz zastanów się, dlaczego nie mogłobyć dokładnie odwrotnie, jak to se odtfoszyli ofitzjalni.

      EHG było wysokoenergetyczne i żadnych tzw. palatalizacji słowiańśkich nie było. To nazistowski wytrysk. Tak twierdzę.

      Jeśli chcesz sprawdzać odtfoszone dźwięki, no to to nie ten adres. Jestem zawsze otwarty na porównywanie, ale czegoś rzeczywistego. Nie porównuję odtfoszeń, bo to jest z dupci wyjęta kaka, patrz tzw. rough breathing.

      (…) Powiedz mi, skoro BSy nie zmieniają dźwieku, to kim my jesteśmy?
      Skąd mamy Ty >> Ciebie, Tok >> Ciek? (…)

      Hahahaha… Widzisz i juz wdepłaś. Oboczność, kochaniutka, oboczność kłania siem w pas, ale tego Ci ofitzjalni ni powiedzo!

      Chcesz porównywać, porównaj se kota i kocura. Ciekawe co znajdziesz.

      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kot
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kot
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kot%D1%8A

      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kocur
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kocur
      https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/kocour#cs
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kocour

      Wiesz już do czego piję i dlaczego jest to czeskie piwko? Przy okazji to jest jeszcze Gato… To też ubezdźwięcznienie, wiesz?

      Możesz jeszcze porównać sobie np. servus. Też jestem ciekaw, co Ci wyjdzie, ale nie podpowiem Ci już nic wincy… hehehe

      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/servus

      …..

      Powtarzam, jeśli chcesz znać jedno słowo, które opisuje cały znany Ci wszechświat, to będzie to o’+BeZ+Dz’Wie”+C”+Nie+Nie… jak DzWoN i Soo’ND, itp… Wszystko to drgania…

      Polubienie

      • „Oboczność, kochaniutka, oboczność kłania siem w pas,”
        Jesteś pewien?
        A jak by było Ty >> Tiebie, Tok >>Tiek?
        To oboczność się nie kłania?

        O co chodzi z kotem? Co mam zrobić?
        Wiadomo, ze to nie może pochodzić z germanskich, bo jak zauważyłam nie mieli dźwięku K.

        Polubienie

        • Hahahaha. Jesteś niezła, jak zwykle.

          Poczytaj o tzw. palatalizacjach słowiańskich. Pisałem już o tym nie raz. Chodzi o wyjątki od rzekomej reguły. Pamiętasz CaPa i KoPe”?
          To jest tzw. oboczność rdzeni. W j. czeskim powinien być TaP… Co do KoTa, to dlaczego istnieje KoC+iaK i KoC+o’R, a szczególnie KoCoo’R w j. czeskim, hm? Dlaczego Czesi zrobili sobie tu wyjątek, co? Nie wspominam nawet o KoC’+Ko’, itp.

          Rozumiesz?

          Polubienie

            • Nie. Tzw. palatalizacja, szczególnie ta tzw. lechicka (3) powinna wyglądać coś jak to: CoC lub SoC, a nie KoT, czy KoC+iaK, czy Koc+o’R, a zwłaszcza Koo’C+o’R w j. czeskim! 🙂 Rozumiesz?

              Polubienie

  7. A poza tym jesteśmy bardziej skomplikowni niż późne PIE.
    Od kiedy stałam się ałtajską miłośniczką (od łowów – ov) to wszystko widzę po turecku.
    Brać – Proto-Turkic *bēr- (“to give”)
    Jary, year – Proto-Turkic *jāŕ, (“summer”)
    Żerca, żertwa – Turkic yırtıcı (“predator”)

    Doszło do tego, że w azer. Oxucu – czytelnik, widzę (oczy + ca) Koncówka oznacza zajęcie zawód. np. موزیکانچی (muzikânči) lub znany ci ovçu – łowczy.

    Czy to możliwe żeby czytać, odczyt wiązało się z oczami? Kazakh оқу (oqw, “to read’)?

    W def czytania jest tak: «śledząc wzrokiem napisane lub wydrukowane litery, zapoznawać się z treścią tego, co jest napisane lub wydrukowane»

    Mądrala ze współczeności mówi „śledzić wzrokiem” ale ciemniak z Malta „oczyć”. Co?

    Polubienie

    • (…) A poza tym jesteśmy bardziej skomplikowni niż późne PIE.
      Od kiedy stałam się ałtajską miłośniczką (od łowów – ov) to wszystko widzę po turecku.
      Brać – Proto-Turkic *bēr- (“to give”)
      Jary, year – Proto-Turkic *jāŕ, (“summer”)
      Żerca, żertwa – Turkic yırtıcı (“predator”)
      Doszło do tego, że w azer. Oxucu – czytelnik, widzę (oczy + ca) Koncówka oznacza zajęcie zawód. np. موزیکانچی (muzikânči) lub znany ci ovçu – łowczy.

      Czy to możliwe żeby czytać, odczyt wiązało się z oczami? Kazakh оқу (oqw, “to read’)?(…)

      Jak widzę, ciągle ze 3,000 – 4,000 lat wcześniej od pierwszych zapisków w tzw. Pra-Turkijskim na Zabałkaju, nie robi Ci różnicy. Pomyślisz w końcu o np. R1a M417 w Locomotiv, co?:-(

      Jak chcesz się w tej turkawackiej miłości czołgać, służę pomocą. Mam ciężkie Pra-Słowiańskie buty i lubiem stawać nimi niewiernym na głowach… 🙂

      …..

      Tekst wstępu i część pierwszego rozdziału wysłany. Robertowi też. Czekam tam na Wasze uwagi.

      Polubienie

        • Mi pożyczki słowiańskie do tureckich zupełnie nie przeszkadzają. A skąd wiadomo czy to nie pozostałość po EHG czy ANE?
          Ale pomysł z czytaniem od oczu jest ok.?
          Pomyśl o ręce i rzucać.
          A co byś powiedział o trupie i strupie? Trochę się różnia.
          Grecy mają słowo τρυπάω (trupáō, “to bore”) – dziurawić.
          Ale już borer to po angielsku trepan. Coś jak trzpień.

          Polubienie

          • Dzięki za opinię. Jeszcze raz mówię, nie pisz w C”eLo’S’+Ci, bo nie mogę tam odpowiedzieć. Jak chcesz odpowiedzi, pisz na zwrotnego maila…

            (…) Mi pożyczki słowiańskie do tureckich zupełnie nie przeszkadzają. A skąd wiadomo czy to nie pozostałość po EHG czy ANE? (…)

            Mi nic nie przeszkadza, jeśli jest prawdziwe. Turków nie było jeszcze na świecie, kiedy R1a nazywało Gural i Załtaj, itp. R1a to EHG, a to jest Po-ANE, nieprawdaż?

            (…) Ale pomysł z czytaniem od oczu jest ok.? (…)

            Może być, jako Oczytanie i Oczenie…

            (…) Pomyśl o ręce i rzucać. (…)

            Chyba Robert już kiedyś o tym pisał…

            (…) A co byś powiedział o trupie i strupie? Trochę się różnia. (…)

            Tak, jednom literkom. Trup może mieć Strupy…

            Polubienie

        • Dwie pracki nawiązujące do tureckawatego stepu i przy okazji dotyczące różnorodnego DNA niby „słowiańskich” Hunów i Awarów.

          https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/597997v1

          Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin

          Endre Neparáczki,
          Posted April 03, 2019.
          doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/597997

          https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf?fbclid=

          Abstract:

          Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived into the Carpathian Basin from the Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape. In order to shed light on the genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, from 49 individuals, supposed to represent military leaders. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly unmixed Asian characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating pure European, Asian and admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate similar phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic Steppe sources. Composition of conquering Hungarian paternal lineages is very similar to that of Baskhirs, supporting historical sources that report identity of the two groups.

          I to:

          https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/415760v2

          Genetic insights into the social organisation of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin

          Veronika Csáky,
          doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/415760
          Posted March 31, 2019.

          Abstract
          After 568 AD the Avars settled in the Carpathian Basin and founded the Avar Qaganate that was an important power in Central Europe until the 9th century. Part of the Avar society was probably of Asian origin, however the localisation of their homeland is hampered by the scarcity of historical and archaeological data.

          Here, we study mitogenome and Y chromosomal STR variability of twenty-six individuals, a number of them representing a well-characterised elite group buried at the centre of the Carpathian Basin more than a century after the Avar conquest.

          The studied group has maternal and paternal genetic affinities to several ancient and modern East-Central Asian populations. The majority of the mitochondrial DNA variability represents Asian haplogroups (C, D, F, M, R, Y and Z). The Y-STR variability of the analysed elite males belongs only to five lineages, three N-Tat with mostly Asian parallels and two Q haplotypes. The homogeneity of the Y chromosomes reveals paternal kinship as a cohesive force in the organisation of the Avar elite strata on both social and territorial level. Our results indicate that the Avar elite arrived in the Carpathian Basin as a group of families, and remained mostly endogamous for several generations after the conquest.

          A tu wypociny Carlosa:

          https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/magyar-tribes-brought-r1a-z280xz92-and-n1a-l392xb197-to-the-carpathian-basin/

          Magyar tribes brought R1a-Z645, I2a-L621, and N1a-L392(xB197) lineages to the Carpathian Basin

          The Nightmare Week of “N1c=Uralic” proponents (see here) continues, now with preprint Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin, by Neparaczki et al. bioRxiv (2019). (…)

          I jeszcze to:

          https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/r1a-z280-and-r1a-z93-shared-by-ancient-ugric-populations-n1c-tat-expanded-with-micro-altaic/

          Polubienie

        • http://sumerianturks.org/water.htm

          WATER, FATHER, AND MOTHER: INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES DERIVE FROM SUMERIAN TURKISH

          By Mehmet Kurtkaya, Published on October 23, 2018, Last Update on August 22, 2019

          Wg tego źródła Turcy niby udomowili pewno tura, czy tak? Hahahaha…

          https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/tur
          https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tur
          https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/táwros

          Akin to Proto-Semitic *θawr- (“bull, ox”); may be borrowed from or into, or possibly both from a common unknown source.
          https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Semitic/θawr-

          A teraz pacz:

          https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tur
          https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestykacja_zwierz%C4%85t
          https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietolerancja_laktozy

          Czy tura udomowiono w Europie np. na Kujawach, patrz sery, gen umożliwiający trawienie mleka krowiego to okolice Bajkału? itp.

          Miło mi, że wrzuciłaś tu te Fielko-Tureckie mondrosi. Poczytam w wolnej chwili. Jesteś uparta jak tur z tymi tureckawatymi pomysłami. Super! Pomożesz mi udowodnić wiarygodność tego, jak Rudaweb i Histslov pomogli mi z południową drogą R1a. 🙂

          No dawaj, co tam masz z tą pra-dawną pra-tureckawatą laktozą! 🙂

          Polubienie

          • „Jesteś uparta jak tur z tymi tureckawatymi pomysłami.”
            Oj tam, oj tam. Trafiłam na tę stronę z rana, wydała mi się ciekawa, wiec ci namierzyłam.
            Trochę rzeczywiście jego pomysły są „fielko”, skoro IE uważa za odgałęzienie od turanskich.
            Ale mnie ciekawi skąd mamy te wspólne z nimi słowa. Albo sobie pożyczaliśmy, albo mieliśmy jakiegoś wspólnego ANE przodka.
            Wymyślił sobie prasłowo Ug – Ur.
            A ze mamy takie słowo – ugór – „pole nieuprawiane przez pewien okres czasu”, więc sprawdziłam co więcej o tym napisali.
            I np. U Basków nazywa się lugorri.
            https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/lugorri#eu
            „(LN, G) Wilderness. From lur „earth” and gorri „red, dry”.”
            Aleksander Brückner napisał o ‘ziemi wystawionej na słońce, bez uprawy’; ogorzały.
            A gorzeć to:
            palić się[1]
            świecić się[1]
            być ogarniętym przez silne uczucie[1]
            Tak czy srak baskijska jest sucha ziemia a nasza gorąca?, spalona? W każdym razie jałowa.
            Co myślisz?

            Polubienie

            • Ja Cię nie pierniczę! Ugol po rosyjsku to pewno też od o’+GoRi!!! Brawo! Ogień to stary ślad. Co powiesz o tureckawatej laktozie, kochaniutka? Uciekłaś? 🙂

              Tu masz co nieco, żebyś zmiętkła, patrz:

              https://www.polskieradio.pl/23/266/Artykul/743723,Najstarszy-europejski-ser-pochodzi-z-Polski

              (…)

              7500 lat to początki neolitu. Dopiero w tej epoce ludzie nauczyli się uprawiać zboże i hodować bydło. Właśnie istnienie hodowli jest warunkiem powstawania sera, ponieważ jedynie oswojone zwierzę pozwoli się wydoić. Na świecie jest tylko jeden rejon, gdzie znaleziono wcześniejsze dowody na przetwarzanie mleka: Bliski Wschód. Ale to tam zaczęła się rewolucja neolityczna, a zatem również udomowienie zwierząt. Stąd i ślady mleka sprzed 8000 lat. Ale tam nie ma dowodów na to, że robiono ser! Następne dane dotyczące serów, już pisane, pochodzą sprzed 5000 lat.

              7500 lat to początki neolitu. Dopiero w tej epoce ludzie nauczyli się uprawiać zboże i hodować bydło. Właśnie istnienie hodowli jest warunkiem powstawania sera, ponieważ jedynie oswojone zwierzę pozwoli się wydoić. Na świecie jest tylko jeden rejon, gdzie znaleziono wcześniejsze dowody na przetwarzanie mleka: Bliski Wschód. Ale to tam zaczęła się rewolucja neolityczna, a zatem również udomowienie zwierząt. Stąd i ślady mleka sprzed 8000 lat. Ale tam nie ma dowodów na to, że robiono ser! Następne dane dotyczące serów, już pisane, pochodzą sprzed 5000 lat.

              Nie wiadomo, jak dużo czasu zajęło ludziom opracowanie techniki fermentacji mleka, która ostatecznie prowadzi do pojawienia się sera – zastanawia się dr Peter Bogucki z Princeton University. Jeśli wierzyć najnowszym ustaleniom, procedurę odkryto bardzo szybko. 7500 lat temu neolit dopiero zaczął się kształtować, a na ziemiach polskich istniała dopiero pierwsza neolityczna kultura, tzw. ceramiki wstęgowej rytej, która przybyła na nasze ziemie z południa. Być może technikę wyroby sera przyniosła ze sobą.

              Przetwarzanie mleka pozwala uniknąć alergii spożywczych na mleko, a bardzo wielu ludzi nie toleruje laktozy. Innym powodem, który doprowadził do wyrobu sera, jest długi termin jego przydatności do spożycia, zdecydowanie dłuższy niż samego mleka.(…)

              http://archeowiesci.pl/2012/12/13/najstarsze-sery-swiata-z-polski/

              Tu masz to:

              https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestykacja_zwierz%C4%85t

              (…) krowa (bydło domowe) tur 6000 p.n.e. Bliski Wschód (…)

              Masz jakieś dane o genetyce bydła? Koń to Duke2 z BBC z Puszty, a krowa z Kujaw, to co przyszła z Ganj Darech i nie mogła być tutejsza? 😉

              A kiedy to Tura udomowili Turcy? Robili tureckie sery, czy tylko jednak kumys pędzili x koników na 100% nie z Botaj? Jak tam z tym było, co? Wymiękasz?

              https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietolerancja_laktozy
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance


              Rough rates of lactose intolerance in different regions of the world

              https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Lactose_tolerance_in_the_Old_World.svg
              An estimate of the percentage of adults that can digest lactose in the indigenous population of the Old World[70]

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence#/media/File:Lactase_persistence_in_the_Old_World.svg
              Percentage of adults with a known lactase persistence genotype in the indigenous population of the Old World

              (…) Gene-culture coevolution hypothesis
              The gene–culture coevolution hypothesis of the positive selection of the lactase persistence phenotype is based on the observation that pastoralist populations often present high levels of lactase persistence. According to this hypothesis, the reason of selection is the nutritional advantage of being lactase persistent.[2][10]

              Individuals who expressed lactase-persistent phenotypes would have had a significant advantage in nutritional acquisition.[35] This is especially true for societies in which the domestication of milk-producing animals and pastoralism became a main way of life.

              The combination of pastoralism and lactase persistence genes would have allowed individuals the advantage of niche construction, meaning they would have had less competition for resources by deriving a secondary food source, milk.[43] Milk as a nutrition source may have been more advantageous than meat, as its rate of renewal is significantly faster. Rather than having to raise and slaughter animals, one cow or goat could repeatedly serve as a resource with fewer time and energy constraints. The competitive advantage conferred on lactose-tolerant individuals would have given rise to strong selective pressures for this genotype, especially in times of starvation and famine, which in turn gave rise to higher frequencies in lactase persistence within the populations.

              By contrast, for societies which did not engage in pastoral behaviors, no selective advantage exists for lactase persistence. Mutations which may have developed allelic variations which code for lactase production into adulthood are simply neutral mutations. They seemingly confer no fitness benefit to individuals. As a result, no selection has perpetuated the spread of these allelic variants, and the lactase persistence genotype and phenotype remains rare.[1] For example, in East Asia, historical sources also attest that the Chinese did not consume milk, whereas the nomads who lived on the borders did. This reflects modern distributions of intolerance. China is particularly notable as a place of poor tolerance, whereas in Mongolia and the Asian steppes, milk and dairy products are a main nutrition source. The nomads also make an alcoholic beverage, called airag or kumis, from mare’s milk, although the fermentation process reduces the amount of lactose present.

              Two scenarios have been proposed for the gene–culture coevolution hypothesis: either lactase persistence developed and was selected after the onset of pastoralist practices (culture-historical hypothesis); or pastoralism spread only in populations where lactase persistence was already at high frequencies (reverse-cause hypothesis). There are exceptions to the hypothesis like the hunter-gatherers Hadza (Tanzania) with a prevalence of lactase persistence phenotype of 50%.[10]

              The evolution of lactase persistence in response to pastoral behavior can be seen as an example of the Baldwin effect, by which animals’ behavior affects the selection pressure they are under.[44] (…)

              I co podskoczysz mi wyżej siedząc po turecku? 🙂

              Polubienie

        • http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=lactose+persistence

          Friday, March 18, 2016

          New insights into human adaptation and population structure thanks to ancient genomes

          Open access at Nature Communications:

          Abstract: The influence of positive selection sweeps in human evolution is increasingly debated, although our ability to detect them is hampered by inherent uncertainties in the timing of past events. Ancient genomes provide snapshots of allele frequencies in the past and can help address this question. We combine modern and ancient genomic data in a simple statistic (DAnc) to time allele frequency changes, and investigate the role of drift and adaptation in population differentiation. Only 30% of the most strongly differentiated alleles between Africans and Eurasians changed in frequency during the colonization of Eurasia, but in Europe these alleles are enriched in genic and putatively functional alleles to an extent only compatible with local adaptation. Adaptive alleles—especially those associated with pigmentation—are mostly of hunter-gatherer origin, although lactose persistence arose in a haplotype present in farmers.These results provide evidence for a role of local adaptation in human population differentiation.

           

          Key, F. M. et al. Human adaptation and population differentiation in the light of ancient genomes. Nat. Commun. 7:10775 doi: 10.1038/ncomms10775 (2016).

          See also…

          Lactase persistence and ancient DNA

          Posted by Davidski at 3:14:00 PM 54 comments:

          Romulus said…
          „No ancestral genome carries rs16891982’s derived allele”

          What about Stora Forvar? Reich lab created this myth of dark skinned hunter gatherers which has turned out to be totally false. Looks like 19th century anthropologists are proven to be SPOT ON once again thanks to ancient DNA.

          The Stora Förvar 11 remains were found on Stora Karlsö, a small island off the west coast of the larger Swedish island of Gotland, in the Baltic Sea. The remains were dated to 7,500 to 7,250 years ago, and they were found in a late Mesolithic context.

          Stora Förvar 11 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup U5a1. He had two copies of the depigmentation allele in the gene SLC45A2, and since Motala 12 had at least one copy of the depigmentation allele in the gene SLC24A5, we now know that both of the two major Caucasoid depigmentation mutations were present in the hunter-gatherers of Mesolithic Europe.
          March 18, 2016 at 6:49 PM

          Davidski said…
          Matt,
          The current thinking seems to be that the LP allele originated in early European farmers, but shot up in frequency during the Bronze Age in populations of mixed farmer/steppe origin. That’s because none of the pure steppe samples carry the LP allele. It first shows up in a Bell Beaker sample, and then on the steppe in Srubnaya samples.

          So it looks like the steppe people moved into Central Europe, picked up the allele, and then spread it around Europe and parts of Asia, as far as India.
          March 18, 2016 at 8:59 PM

          Karl_K said…
          @”Rob” „But it was already spread. All we’re seeing is an increase in frequency. It’s is premature to attribute the spread of LP to steppe groups in Europe, when it already existed there”

          But the frequency went up after the steppe people moved in, as the proportion of farmer ancestry went down. The selection was due to the old allele being associated with a new culture. In Europe, the people with the least steppe ancestry tend to have the least LP, and in India, the people with the most steppe ancestry have the most LP.

          March 18, 2016 at 10:00 PM

          Karl_K said…
          @Matt „or is more like WHG likely did not have the variant, but some related HG did?”

          Exactly. The mutation arose on this haplotype background. That means it most likely was a related HG. So the rs16891982 variant on SLC45A arose in WHG probably.
          March 18, 2016 at 10:08 PM

          FrankN said…
          The statistical baseline, i.e. their simulated „no specific selection” case against which they measure the significance of actual findings, is problematic. The scenario places UI as basal to West Eurasian HGs and EEF farmers alike, highly questionable when looking at UI’s yDNA K, against WHG I and EEF G2. Alberto has made some good points on this. They also model current Europeans as 50% HG, 50% EEF. Whatever their understanding of HG (i.e. whether just WHG, or also EHG/CHG), that ratio is obviously off the mark. A more realistic demographic modelling could have affected the statistical significance of their findings.

          Pretty disappointing is they only focusing on the usual stuff (skin/ eye colour, lactase persistence). I generally would like to see less discussion of skin colour, which is obviously prone to racist (mis-)interpretation, but of little help in understanding prehistory. Much more interesting would be information related to metabolism (->nutrition habits) and immunology. Recent research has identified positive selection, with geographically distinct patterns (Africa vs. Europe vs. E.Asia) on immune-system related genes such as Toll-like receptors (TLR- they identify bacteria/virus-specific DNA/RNA, and activate corresponding immune response; some, e.g. TLR7, are coded on the X Chromosome). That research isn’t referenced at all.

          I did a random scan of some of the genes for which they established genic enhancement across all 4 European reference groups (not that I have any expertise in genetics, I just googled what comes up as recent research), and found:

          -APBA2 Involved in neuronal signal transduction. Malfunction is linked to autism and Alzheimer.

          -SLC10Manganese and zinc resorption. Malfunction is linked to Parkinson and Alzheimer. The genic European tail includes a number of other genes related to liver/kidney functions, e.g. AQP6 (Aquaporin) and SLC12A1 (Sodium-Potassium-Chloride resorption). Possibly nutrition-related, deserves further analysis.

          • EP400: Target of Adenoviruses, which may have mild (cold-like) to deadly effects on humans, and are otherwise especially prominent with canines („canine hepatitis”), and bovines including equids. Clearly a gene worthwhile further analysis in relation to the domestication history of dogs, horses and cattle; a Loeschbaur v.s Stuttgart (vs. Yamnaya) comparison would have been quite informative.
            http://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/Q96L91
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenoviridae
        • IFI16: Interferon regulation. Key role in antiviral response, especially to Herpesviriridae, Lentivirus (HIV), and papillomavirus (causes warts, which may evolve into cancer). Also linked to inflammatory reaction and autoimmunity.
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/3428
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25742143/

        • AVEN: Cell-death activator, poorly understood, but a/o linked to Leukemia, possibly cancer defence in general, and also infertility.
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/57099
          -MLLT3: Mixed-line Leukemia, related to AVEN above
          -TPRG1: Tumor proteine p63 Regulated
          -WWOX: Tumor-suppression gene.
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18437686

        • Speculatively, pigmentation change could have resulted in a need to stimulate cancer defence, especially as concerns Melanoma.
          March 18, 2016 at 10:40 PM

          FrankN said…
          I don’t understand this: There are two teams from the same institution – Leipzig MPI for Evolutionary Anthropology – yet one team doesn’t take notice of the other teams’ findings.

          This recent publication, also from Leipzig, is exactly providing what I would be looking for:
          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929715004863

          „Here we document a cluster of three Toll-like receptors (TLR6-TLR1-TLR10) in modern humans that carries three distinct archaic haplotypes, indicating repeated introgression from archaic humans. Two of these haplotypes are most similar to the Neandertal genome, and the third haplotype is most similar to the Denisovan genome. The Toll-like receptors are key components of innate immunity and provide an important first line of immune defense against bacteria, fungi, and parasites. (..)

          Of the three putatively introgressed core haplotypes, III and IV are most similar to the Altai Neandertal genome (..) Core haplotype VII is most similar to the Denisovan sequence. (..)
          Core haplotype III is present in all non-African populations, and we also observe it in two chromosomes from two Northwest Gambian individuals (excluding the potentially admixed African Americans). (..) Core haplotype IV is restricted to specific Asian groups, and core haplotype VII is present in only two South Asian individuals [STU, ITU]. (..)
          We note that two early modern humans (dated to ∼7,000–8,000 years before present) from Europe (Stuttgart and Loschbour) also carry TLR haplotypes similar to Neandertal core haplotype III and an early modern human from Asia (Ust’-Ishim, ∼45,000 years) carries a haplotype that is most similar to core haplotype V—the major non-introgressed haplotype in modern humans. (..)

          The frequency of the shared SNPs common to Neandertal-like core haplotypes III and IV also varies significantly between populations even within continents. In Europe, a North-South gradient is apparent with significantly high population differentiation between southern Europeans (Toscani and Iberians, with frequencies of 39.3% and 38.3%, respectively) and all other European groups (Finnish, British, and CEPH, with frequencies between 14.8% and 26.4%) (p value < 0.05) (..) In Asia, the most Eastern populations (Japanese and Han Chinese, frequency 53.4% and 53.6%) show high differentiation from other Asian populations (frequency 21.7%–41.9%; p value < 0.05; Tables S5D and S5E). In addition, the 12 SNPs defining Asian-specific core haplotype IV show high population differentiation when Dai and Vietnamese (with frequencies 9.4% and 9.9%) are compared to other Asian populations (frequencies between 0% and 4.7%).
          (..)
          These archaic alleles lead to significantly increased expression of TLR6, TLR1, and TLR10 in white blood cells, and in present-day people are associated with reduced Helicobacter pylori seroprevalence and increased susceptibility to allergies.”

          To understand the significance: The TLR1/6/10 cluster has been shown to display strong adaptive selection to the Plague. TLR10 plays an important role in mobilising response to influenza, probably also other viral infections, and modulates inflammatory response. TLR6 acts on Mycoplasma, bacteria immune to most antibiotics, which are involved in respiratory, sexual and rheumatic diseases.
          A more detailed assessment appears to be included in the following paper – paywalled, but maybe someone with access can report key results:
          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929715004851
          March 19, 2016 at 12:58 AM

          Karl_K said…
          @FrankN „I generally would like to see less discussion of skin colour, which is obviously prone to racist (mis-)interpretation, but of little help in understanding prehistory.”

          Yet these genes have the highest rates of selection across all modern human genomes. So to imply that they are meaningless is incorrect. Probably a lot of people in the Bronze Age were selected for racism, as they started to accumulate very compact, inheritable wealth. Metals and livestock changed the game, which changed the genetics.
          March 19, 2016 at 1:00 AM

          batman said…
          Or the LP-alleles spread from its place of origin, where its major population still resides, via the waterways to the Caspian and the Caucasian steppes – where the wide, open fields were still unpopulated.

          Bringing cattle along the LP-adapted communities could spread and multiply in to areas otherwise where foragers and herders had å hard time producing enough staple-food to survive the the winter. Parallel to Europe, where the large plains remains uninhabitted before the bovine LP-adapted populations (R1) start multiplying – inbetween the older societies of herders, hunters and fishermen (GHIJ/NO).

          Remarkably, the lp-adaption seem to be based within an arctically adapted population, with high and narrow noses and a de-pigmented exterior.

          It’s dim up north – and short Seasons to produce and collect the Harvest needed to survive the long, dark and freezing-cold winters. Around the fireplace…
          March 19, 2016 at 5:49 AM

          Matt said…
          Karl_K Exactly. The mutation arose on this haplotype background. That means it most likely was a related HG.

          So the rs16891982 variant on SLC45A arose in WHG probably.

          So I guess under this connection most likely on a WHG related population who contributed to Anatolia_Neolithic and Scandinavian_HG (who both have the variant) and not to Loschbour-Bichon-Hungary_HG-Iberia_HG, who don’t seem to.

          Although, because I don’t know much about this area, how do we actually know that the rs16891982 variant arose on that haplotype background? Statistical association in modern Europeans (who have around 1.00 at this variant, seems like it would make it difficult to make a statistical association), or some other means?
          March 19, 2016 at 6:18 AM

          ZI Alt said…
          @Karl_K
          Skoglund et al. 2014 – Genomic Diversity and Admixture Differs for Stone-Age Scandinavian Foragers and Farmers
          Stora Förvar 11, in Table S6 is reported as derived at rs16891982.
          March 19, 2016 at 7:51 AM

          Matt said…
          @ Karl: Ah, my thinking was that the haplotype to variant association could’ve been a wrong one, if the haplotype was at high frequency, then the variant tended to cross over onto it, due to strong selection on that variant. But that shouldn’t happen.

          Btw, slight adjustment to my understanding earlier:

          • they find that the absolute % enrichment in highly differentiated derived variants at genic sites is only slightly higher in Europeans than Asians, and in fact the number of derived allele variants with fixed differences is higher in the CHB than GBR – 3845 vs 1330.
        • where the Europeans are particularly enriched in derived allele variants at genic sites is in the European tail of DAnc (Africa, Europe, Ust′-Ishim).

        • DAnc(Africa, Europe, Ust′-Ishim) is a statistic which provides a statistical score that measures whether a derived variant is highly frequent in Europeans and low frequency in both Ust’-Ishim and Africans (and variants scoring this way are called as in the „European tail” of the distribution) or, whether a derived variant is highly frequent in Africans and low frequency in both Europeans and Africans (these are in the „African tail”).

          While even the DAnc(Africa, Europe, Ust′-Ishim) still gives a much lower number of highly differentiated genic variants than DAnc(Africa, Asia, Ust′-Ishim) – e.g. CHB 809 vs GBR 354 – the enrichment in genic variants compared to non-genic is relatively higher in Europeans.

          So now I understand it, this is stronger than I thought, as evidence that selection has been relatively more important in change in genic variants in Europeans, relative to East Asians, since Ust Ishim.

          I still don’t quite understand though:

          a) why they didn’t seem to run DAnc(Africa, Stuttgart, Ust′-Ishim) and DAnc(Africa, Loschbour, Ust′-Ishim). is this because they need multiple genomes in P2 for it to make sense and be comparable? instead there’s kind of a back-checking for the presence of DAnc(Africa, GBR, Ust′-Ishim) in the ancient samples.

          b) not sure how they accounted for Basal Eurasian properly in Stuttgart, which itself would seem to lower the enrichment of genic:non-genic differences vs Ust Ishim. they have simulations, hard to be sure whether their simulations have assumptions which make sense. (Like, clearly, the WHG related ancestors of EEF and WHG did not split 60,000 years ago and then never combine after that, and they both clearly didn’t have continuous population growth following the same trajectory for 57,000 of those years, given Pinhasi’s talk of very low population sizes as low as 30 in the Ice Age).
          March 19, 2016 at 9:02 AM

          Krefter said…
          @Tobus,
          So far all, EHG and CHG have SLC45A2. It isn’t only from EEF, I’d say it’s from Steppe and later intrusions form West Asia. IMO, it’s important to remeber SLC45A2 rose in frequency because of natural selection not because of Steppe ancestry.
          March 19, 2016 at 4:28 PM

          Romulus said…
          SLC45A2 did not originate in West Asia amongst ANE, neither Afonta Gora nor Malta boy was positive for it. The oldest samples found containing it are all found in Scandinavia (Stora Forvar, Motala), exactly where it has its peak distribution today. Obviously to anyone with 2 brain cells it originated in Europe. It doesn’t matter if 2 EHG samples have it because they contain significant WHG admixture which other highly ANE populations without the allele do not.

          Let me put it in plain english, ANE R1 people, lightened up, by mixing with WHG. They originally looked something like a Native (South) American. Paleolithic Europeans are the source of the light skin, light eyed, European Phenotype.

          March 19, 2016 at 4:57 PM

          Tobus said…
          @Romulus: Let me put it in plain english, ANE R1 people, lightened up, by mixing with WHG.

          That’s simply not correct – none of the three WHG samples have any of the known light-skin variants. The ancient European pops with you are talking about with the derived SLC45A2 are SHG, not WHG, and these pops didn’t directly contribute to the modern European genome, not even in Scandinavia.

          The primary skin-lightening allele is SLC24A5 which was fixed in Anatolian farmers (and elsewhere) before they arrived in Europe, and the frequencies in Early European farmers are slightly lower than the Anatolian levels, indicating WHG mixture lowered the frequency, not increased it. The secondary allele in SLC45A2 probably has a North-East European origin (earliest samples are SHG and EHG) but its frequency in Europe was minimal before the Yamnaya incursion, suggesting that modern Europeans owe their high levels of it to Steppe, not WHG, ancestry.

          As Krefter correctly points out, selection for SLC45A2 in modern populations didn’t happen until the Bronze Age, so the high frequencies in Mesolithic Scandinavia are a red (pickled?) herring.
          March 19, 2016 at 6:39 PM

          Anonymous said…
          @FrankN

          „I generally would like to see less discussion of skin colour, which is obviously prone to racist (mis-)interpretation, but of little help in understanding prehistory.”

          First, I stopped using the word „racism” or measuring myself to anti-racist moral standard a long time ago. It is a meaningless and empty word. I don’t care the tiniest bit if something I say is either considered racism or the opposite. I tend to piss of both blacktivists and stormfronters on a equal scale on other forums and that is the last bit I would like to say about it.

          However, Europeans tend to be quite divers in looks (eye color, hair color) but not in skin color. That makes it interesting enough, I would say.

          That being said you have a point: The most interesting part of La Brana that was wildly overlooked in my humble view are the genes associated with resistance to pathogens. Similarly it is quite interesting that among the Neanderthal genes that were selected for quite a number are involved in metabolism.

          March 20, 2016 at 12:24 AM

          Anonymous said…
          @FrankN
          https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2015/07/31/tlrs-pamps-and-alley-oop/
          March 20, 2016 at 12:34 AM

          Anonymous said…
          @FrankN
          Come to think of it, Haak et al stated that the shift from MN to LN needed an extra shot of WHG. We know that WHG lived along EEF for a long while. This interests me as it may indicate that whatever happened WHG was better prepared for it than EEF. What if, as some have suggested, the demise of EEF was partly due to the coming of the plague with the Indo-Europeans? WHG being better prepared could be more disease resistant, or even having fixed genes for that only part of EEF would have. We at least now have some clue that whatever set the WHG apart was actively selected for.

          Even if hypothetical: It would be an interesting exception to the perceived rule that farmers wipe out HG’s by bringing diseases.
          March 20, 2016 at 4:14 AM

          Krefter said…
          @Romulus,

          Me and Tobus are referring to West European-WHG and you’re referring to everything WHG-related. EHG had WHG-related ancestry, but they weren’t West European WHGs like Loschbour. Ones like Loschbour, did not have Light-skin mutations. You’re right all the 6000 BC West Eurasians who had Light-skin mutations, shared lots of WHG-related ancestry. And you’re right that could be the ultimate source.

          @epoch2013,
          Maybe population-size is the reason EEF replaced most WHG genes. Contact between EEF/WHG and EEF/WHG/Steppe in the British isles, resulted in almost complete population replacement. Contact between EEF/WHG and EEF/WHG/Steppe in Iberia and Italy, resulted in lots of replacement(30-50% in most parts), but there was lots of survival of EEF/WHG.

          Differences in population-size of native EEF/WHG in the British isles and Italy/Iberia, could be why there were differnt levels of population replacement.
          March 20, 2016 at 6:05 AM

          Anonymous said…
          @Krefter
          @FrankN
          The Netherlands and North-Germany have excellent excavation records. I think FrankN already presented some sites where FB sites were far more numerous than the successor CWC sites.

          I have somewhere a paper on CWC sites in the Netherlands. It’s a large paper but worth downloading and reading. I’ll try and find it and post a link. From what I read sites from the fringes of the FB culture survived far better than main FB sites. I have a hunch these fringe sites are the local successors of Vlaardingen and Swifterband sites, local Dutch spawns of Ertebolla like cultures which almost certainly were WHG continuation cultures living alongside LBK.
          March 20, 2016 at 12:59 PM

          Tobus said…
          @Grey:
          I think you are probably right with regards to SLC45A2 – it originated in the North-East (whether in SHG, EHG or some xHG that we haven’t found yet), and spread to AN/EEF in low numbers (~20% frequency), presumably via North-South interaction in the Steppe/Caucasus area or further east. It came to Europe in small numbers via EEF and then increased dramatically (>75%) when the Yamnaya arrived from the Steppe, who IIRC only had it at ~40% themselves.

          SLC24A5 is different story however, it is essentially fixed in the North, East and South in all the Meslothic and Neolithic samples we have, and came to Europe in the high 90%s with EEF. It’s origin could be anywhere east of Europe and it’s probably much older than SLC45A2, and selected for at a different time/place.

          An interesting question is why SLC24A5 is fixed in the farmers whereas SLC45A2 stayed at ~20% until the Bronze Age, as both alleles give similar effects to the phenotype supposedly under selection.
          March 20, 2016 at 11:07 PM

          Matt said…
          Interesting question raised by Tobus.

          The drop in SLC45A2 in Europe during the Early Neolithic, from AN->Iberian_MN looks proportionate to WHG ancestry (around 10% drop from 40% in AN->30% in CEM, proportionate to 10% WHG ancestry, then 10% more between Central European Neolithic->Iberia Neolithic, which seems again consistent with the greater WHG in the pooled Iberian sample).

          That’s from Mathieson – http://tinyurl.com/hgqvy3f

          So it looks close to no selection since entry of the AN population to Europe (instead the variant just drops proportionate to WHG admixture). Why would that happen?

          Btw, for EHG, based on Sandra Wilde’s results (see ANL – Aneolithic steppe), this looks like – http://i.imgur.com/gTtggio.png. Most likely frequency 20% for EHG, based on four samples.

          I’m pretty inclined to trust that, since her results for other alleles on the steppe frequencies tend to be consistent with Mathieson (Lactase, HERC2, SLC24A5) – http://i.imgur.com/Ii9M6DV.png.

          So simple CHG+EHG admixture wouldn’t seem to explain Yamnaya’s frequency of SLC45A2 (a higher frequency reduced). Seems like contra to MN Europe, the steppe did experience selection on this variant, unless the 40% frequency in Yamnaya is just intermediate a higher frequency in their Neolithic ancestors and a lower frequency from EHG?
          March 21, 2016 at 12:42 PM

          Tobus said…
          @Matt: Most likely frequency 20% for EHG, based on four samples.
          That doesn’t sound right. Samara is fixed derived at SLC45A2 and Karelia is heterozygous… so EHG should be 75%. Is EHG the „ANL” on that image? If so it looks like they got their ancestral/deriveds mixed up.
          March 22, 2016 at 3:22 PM

          Tobus said…
          I checked Wilde’s paper again – the „ANL” are from Smyadovo in Bulgaria 4500-3000 BC, whereas EHG are from much further north and west in Russia 4700-4000 BC. I don’t think these can be considered the same population. Just from their location I’d expect ANL to be much closer to WHG or even CHG than to EHG.
          March 22, 2016 at 8:32 PM

          Grey said…
          Also…
          the other thing i wonder about is what if it’s not skin but eyes?

          I read that in arctic conditions SF use black camo paint around the eyes to stop light reflecting into their eyes causing snow blindness.

          What if at the equator there’s too much light in the eyes so dark eyes/skin reduces it but as you go further north you need either lighter skin to reflect light into the eye or lighter eyes.

          It’s just a thought but if WHG had light eyes as their solution to the problem then there’d be less selective pressure for the new lighter skin allele (being another region’s solution to the same problem). Just speculating – evidence for it might be if eye problems were a bigger deal than rickets for dark eye/skin ppl in the north. (I googled for this once briefly but got bored before i found anything.)
          March 23, 2016 at 10:42 PM

          Polubienie

          • http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna.html

            Sunday, October 18, 2015

            Lactase persistence and ancient DNA

            Iain Mathieson, a Harvard scientist and the lead author of a recent peprint on the history of natural selection in Europe, has a website where he occasionally posts articles. He recently posted a reviewon the origins and spread of lactase persistence (LP) in Europe. He ends the review with the following comment:

            This is actually rather consistent with the Itan et al. result, and it seems plausible to me that the [European LP] allele first appeared in Central Europe, was spread around Europe by the LBK, before being introduced to the steppe later by migration from Europe.

            I can imagine that this conclusion won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, but I’d say it’s a reasonable one for the time being.

            Also, it’s interesting to see the presence of the European LP allele in the Srubnaya Culture remains from the Middle Bronze Age Caspian steppe.

            We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya – a later steppe population who seem to have some European Farmer-like ancestry.

            The same Srubnaya sample also shows a high ratio of Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93 (4/6), which is today one of the most common Y-haplogroups in South Asia.

            Now, the LP allele in South Asia is the same one as in Europe. So what this suggests is that at some point, probably during the later stages of the Bronze Age, steppe nomads closely related to the Srubnaya people moved into South Asia, bringing with them both R1a-Z93 and the European LP allele.

            I’m pretty sure we’ll be hearing more on that soon from the good people at Broad MIT/Harvard.a

            Posted by Davidski at 12:22:00 AM

            batman said…
            In the evolution of species and speciation we find the origin of various species/subspecies to develop in the areas where the climate and the environment favor the specific speciation in question.

            That may take us to the areas between Vallonia and Pommerania, where the we find the (geologically) oldest and finest plains of morrains – and (thus) the most fertile fields suitable for intensive farming.

            Moreover, e may contemplate that the oldest discovery – so far – of burials of cattles and horses, next-door to human settlements – have been found in the temperate areas of Scania and Funen, dated 11.000 years old.

            To determine the evolution of milk-drinking and diary-production it’s a definite requirement to start with the most plain and simple explanation to the ORIGIN of cattle-farming and lactose-persistance. Than we may see if such a location may meet the requirements of a possible origin of the language-group most clearly connected with dairies, ox-charts and horse-breeding.

            Consequently it is nessecary to check if a Pommerian/Danish origin can explain the branching of R1a/R1b – as well as the downstream of Rb1-269 and the connection between the beakers of Samara/Yamna, Carpatia/Kyros and the Atlantic Facade. The autosaomal of the mt-dna of Gökhem, clustering both Sardinians, Spaniards, Basques and Tuscans, seem to support the same area as the better origo to explain the autosomal connections between Samaria/Yamna and the Bell-bakers of Frisia, France and Spain.

            All the more so as the lactase-persistance seem to have it’s area-of-origin in the vincinity of eneolithic Gokhem and Scania, where it STILL peaks, as the bulls-eye of the stats that shows the percentage of lactase-persistance in the world. The further away we move from Scania/Denmark/Holland the less the lactase persistance.

            In terms of logic and reason based on facts – and facts alone – there’s is no way around those plain observations. Perhpas we better do as Chad Rolfsen requires and „think”…

            http://users.ugent.be/~everleye/Ecosystem%20Dynamics/papers%20assignment/Skoglund%20Science-2012-.pdf
            October 18, 2015 at 4:24 AM

            Davidski said…
            Milk drinking probably wasn’t very common in North-Central Europe until after the invasion from the steppe…

            http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/milk-consumption-in-late.html

            But as per the Mathieson review, that doesn’t necessarily mean the LP allele came from the steppe.
            October 18, 2015 at 4:32 AM

            batman said…
            The origin of lactase-persistnce is debated, of course. Though – if you presume it came FROM Samara TO Gokhem – you’re out on a limb. The only ‚evidence’ for this is the idea that Samara was older than Scania, in itself. Circulating the preumtion doesn’t make it a valid argument.
            October 18, 2015 at 6:00 AM

            batman said…
            Not only the lactose-persistance, but also the divesity of our contemporary bovines show a peculiar overlap – in terms of geographical background. From Evershed, et al Nature, 2008:

            October 18, 2015 at 6:11 AM

            batman said…
            The area of origin, as far as caucasians are concerned, due to present archaeology:
            http://uprav.ff.cuni.cz/?q=system/files/mesolithic%20europe.pdf

            Please note that the paleolithic-mesolithic transition – creating the famous bottleneck of the Eurasian genome – has its area of survival, from 12.900 – 12.100 BP, between the English Channel and the Western Baltics.

            Blows in the Scandianvian Ice-Sheet – Arctic plants, animals and humans surviving ice-time in Scandianvia:


            https://uit.no/Content/402295/Ancient_DNA_Alsos.pdf

            Please note that the surviving population – dwelling around the northern estuaries of the Atlantic facade – ALREADY had a well developedboat-culture, able to cross oceans as well as large and lengthy river-systems. Such as the Baltic and the Onega-Volga, as well as the Dvina-Djepr and the Vistula-Bug, Svir and Donau. Not to mention the Elbe/Oder/Rhine-Rhone.

            Consequently, the first mesolithic populations could spread very rapidly – in less than 15 generations – along the milder part of Eurasia, i.e. the Atlantic facade, from Spain to North Cape (11.800 – 11.300 BP).

            A simultanious branching from the Ahrensburg-Swidrien culture went east; north-east as well as south-east and south – devloping connections, travels and trade of flint and amber along the baltic coasts to the river-systems of Wizla/Donau, Dvina/Djepr and Ladoga/Onega. From the latter one reach the Vologda/Volga river and the old, lush fields around the Caspian Sea.


            http://kizhi.karelia.ru/library/sperrings-ceramics-and-srisniemi-i-ceramics-in-russian-karelia/577.html

            Today the first wheat and barley produced in England and Scotland is actualy 8.000- 8.500 years old. As of lately the pioneers of intensive agriculture have been found in the Gulf of Finland, as well – producing buckwheat and barley – no later than 7.300 years ago.

            http://tupa.gtk.fi/julkaisu/bulletin/bt_334.pdf

            Another evidence is the fact that the R1b-branches seem to have developed the larger cattles an horses, just south of the R1a-branches that spread into the cooler climate-zones and the boreal forest-zones – from mainland Scandianvia to the Tarim-bassin and the Alps, developing smaller cattles and the cold-blooded horses.

            Both seem to have spead out of the Baltics – ‚leap-froging’ into the fetile steppes and the higher elevations, respectively. Key-sites within this evolution have even brougth borth the cores and the outliers of R1a and R1b in close relationships – eventhough their patrilinear lines have been maintained.

            Thus we may even recognize the Scandiavian R1a as „swedes” (sved = slash-and-burn) and their cousins within R1b-tribe as „danes” or „germans” (goer/goed = fertilizer).
            October 18, 2015 at 7:32 AM

            batman said…

            Perhaps it’s time to check what the 7.500 year old R1a from Onega – at the crossroad between the Baltic and the Volga – has to do with the first farmers, carrying cattles and R1a into the lower realms of Volga.

            Moreover, it’s time to check how the map of movements – describing the downstream mutations of R1a adn R1b – will look like, if their common origin and ‚bifurication-area’ should happen to be where the oldest traces of cattle-farming AND the oldest populations of milk-drinkers have been found.

            Looking for the waterways through which the spread of R1a/b could reach the green-fields in the wider fields and river-valleys around Uralian, the Caucasian, the Carpathian and the Atapuerchan mountains – some 5.000 years ago – we may even find the SW Baltic as a very logical area-of-origin.

            This clay-rich area of origin may even explain the common tradition of pottery – combining Pitted, Combed, Corded, Curved, Cardial and Linear decorations on beakers and sculptures. Thus we may connect it to how these various ‚stylistic dialects’ occured along the spread of the descendats of y-dna R and mt-dna H, to Norway and Carelia as well as to Baalberge, Euleu and Balaton.

            The leap-frog migrations – from one suitable area to the other – seemed to have followed the old routes of the early trade if flint-tools and amber-art – introducing lactase persistance and IE language to Bactria, Balkan and Iberia, just about simultaniously.

            Consequently – we’re back to the temperate area where the first indutries of flint-tools and amber-jewlery occured – after ice-time:

            http://tupa.gtk.fi/julkaisu/bulletin/bt_334.pdf
            https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amber_Road
            October 18, 2015 at 8:34 AM

            bellbeakerblogger said…
            Here’s what I think is behind Mathieson’s logic. It’s that the time in-between LP not existing till fixation in its present places is only 120 generations. Actually between the Early Bronze Age when we have an LP Beaker* and the Iron Age Celts is less than a hundred generations.
            Haak et al (I believe) being surprised of its relative absense concluded that current frequency must have undergone rapid selection since the metal age.

            Sorry, but zapping fruit flies with plutonium will not get these results in this number of generations. So Mathieson’s is simple moving the goal posts back to their original position to gain time.

            There is one number that does work within a big triangle, Easren Taurus, Ararat, Central Zargos. LP makes sense when it is 10-13 thousand years old (the age of 13910T) and the steppe people must have relative frequency to their Middle Eastern foothill farmer ancestry.
            October 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM

            Grey said…
            batman
            Another possibility for the potential significance related to the areas you mentioned around Vallonia, Frisia, Denmark, Pomerania.

            http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/biogeographical-regions-in-europe-1/map_2-1_biogeographical-regions.eps/image_original

            If milk was the key factor along the Atlantic coast then if you look at the European bio-regions those areas you mention are at the northern extremity of the Atlantic region and on the border between the Atlantic and Continental regions i.e. the regions where you might expect cattle breeding to be most critical.
            October 18, 2015 at 12:55 PM

            batman said…

            Just for the record:

            O’Shea and Zwelebil about Oleni Ostrov, Lake Onega, 1984:

            „Oleneostrovski mogilnik (Red Deer Island cemetery) in Karelia, USSR, is the
            largest known Mesolithic-age cemetery in the Boreal zone, containing the remains
            of at least 170 individual interments. An analysis of mortuary patterning, demographic structure, and regional interaction was performed in order to elucidate the nature of Boreal zone forager society during the late Mesolithic.

            These analyses suggest that the society which produced Oleneostrovski mogilnik was larger and more internally differentiated than previously believed, with a complex system of social differentiation that included hereditary social positions and economic ranking. It also participated in an extensive regional exchange network which moved exotic goods and raw materials over considerable distances.

            It is concluded that the climax of forager occupation in the Boreal zone occurred during late Mesolithic times, with a maximum density of population and maximum social complexity, and that more recent hunter-fisher-gatherer occupations represent only a pale reflection of this peak.

            http://www.umich.edu/~anth282/Olenii.pdf

            As you all know there was three occupants of „South Deer Island” belonging to mt-dna C-1f. Others were U4, U4a U2e, U5a , J and H – while two y-dna came out with R1a1 and J.

            More recent updates on the evolution from foragers and trappers to herders and farmers in Northern Europe:

            Lasse Sorenson, Oxford 2014
            http://nordligeverdener.natmus.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/temasites/nordlige_verdener/nordlige_verdener/Lasse_Sorensen/Lasse_Soerensen_Ph.d.-afhandling_vol._2.pdf

            October 18, 2015 at 3:44 PM

            Davidski said…
            Romulus, Yes, Eastern European and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers have Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry from Siberia. I never said they didn’t. Western European hunter-gatherers also appear to have some of this ancestry, but that depends on the models used.

            Seems like you’re confused, yet again. Try and be less confused in the future.
            October 18, 2015 at 4:04 PM

            Romulus said…
            Sorry David, what you told me specifically was that the EHG in SHG could not have come from an N1c type population as these populations contain recent „Siberian” admixture which EHG/SHG do not have, and that this admixture along with N1c came at a later date. This paper explicitly refutes that.

            „The Western Siberian admixture into the Eastern Europeans likely began before the Yamnaya culture period (5.3-4.7 kya), since the admixtures with Mansi are also very strong among hunter gatherers from Northeastern Europe from 6.6-8 kya (Karelia HG, Samara HG and to lesser degree Motala HG and Hungary Gamba HG; Fig. S21f-q) that predated the Yamnaya people. Therefore Western Siberian admixtures into northeastern Europe likely began prior to 6,600 years ago, coinciding with the expansion of Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1 among Siberians and northeastern Europeans (7,100-4,900 years ago). Since haplogroup N likely originates in Asia or Siberia, its presence among eastern Europeans likely reflects ancient gene flows from Siberia into Eastern Europe.”
            October 18, 2015 at 5:01 PM

            Fanty said…
            @Romulus:

            I think the problem here is the naming and the asumptions about these names.
            Modern Sibirians have ANE (highest in the west) and ENA (highest in southeast).

            I recall that David said, that the scandinavian Hunter Gatherers had ANE but not ENA.
            His asumption of the origin of ANE back then was: Eastern Europe. Means, he asumed that ANE in Sibirians reflects mesolithic European admixture in Sibiria, while Sibirian proper is ENA not ANE.

            I also recall that few years ago, beforfe ANE was invented, all the ANE in Europeans was asumed to be „northeast Asian” or even „Amerindian”, coming up with stuff like Scotts possessing 10% or more Sibirian admixture.

            I have not read the paper except for that quote but I asume that it wants to make a connection between pre-IE ANE in Eastern Europe and the Y-DNA „N” and asumes an Asian Origin of „N”. Then…. it doesnt name it „ANE” but „West Sibirian admixture”.
            October 18, 2015 at 7:20 PM

            Karl_K said…
            „Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants. Western Siberians trace 57% of their ancestry to the Ancient North Eurasians, represented by the 24,000-year-old Siberian Malta boy. In addition, Siberians admixtures are present in lineages represented by Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary and Sweden (from 8,000-6,600 years ago), as well as Yamnaya culture people (5,300-4,700 years ago) and modern-day northeastern Europeans.”
            October 18, 2015 at 11:56 PM

            batman said…
            @ Karl

            „There are plenty of people in Africa with R1b and the „european” LCT allele. Their haplotypes appear to be quite old, not recently imported.”

            Plenty of the African R-line, obviously. But CT-13910 – rather than CT-13915 or CT-14010 – was news to me. There’s been some years since Tischof et al, of course. It’s a bit puzzling thogh that the present wiki-article on LP haven’t taken note of this informarion.

            Perhaps you could provide a source of this new insigths?

            Karl:

            „Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants.”

            Again 50-50, in terms of true and false.

            The Ust-Istim didn’t produce any descendants to survive ice-time – since ALL the populations of northern AND wester Eurasia died out – due to the LGM and the Dryas-periods.

            The effect of the cold-waves were first effective – during LGM – in the eastern half of the northern continent. Thus the eastern steppes became arid tundra – decimating both mammoths and human. Thus the Malta-boy was the last of his kind.

            Thus ALL the famous sites from paleolithic Eurasia disapears during LGM – from Siberia to Central Europe, as seals and pinguins roam the Adriatic Sea.

            The only place were we find mammoths and men after LGM are some scarce remnants along the Atlantic facade and the SW Baltics – of the post-Solutreans, called Magdaliens or Hamburgians, according to location. At the end of LGM they are found at the northern shores of the Meds, too – some carrying the first known mt-dna H. Otherwise they were mt-dna U, V and T, AFAIK.

            During the two next – and final – cold-waves the very last mamoths, elks, cave-bears and grand deers died out from the Occidental Eurasia, too. The last mammoths died at the onset of Younger Dryas – 13.000 years ago – at the northern shores of western Europe, such as Estonia, Denmark and England.

            By this time the arid tundra and taiga reached all the way from Himalaya to the Pyrnenees. NO populations in sigth – except from some Feddermesser-knappers, hauling around the flint-mines of the Danish archipelago.

            This last core of the old Eurasian paleolithoic obviously had a common ancestor with Ust-istim and Malta, as well as Kostenki, Sungir, Dolni, Paglicci and Atapuerca. What the sequencing of Ust-Istim, Malta and Kostenki taugth us was that the paleolithioc Eurasians belonged to one and the same population – from which a core survived to form the new Eurasians – known as the Caudcaisans – and their consequent branches, after ice-time. Thus northern Eurasia got re-populated by the descendants of their common stem – that obviously survived the ice-age cataclysms.

            From a y-dna perspective it seems obvious that hg F were among the survivors, perhaps as Pater Familias, able to reproduce new lines of y-dna G,H,I,J,K – and thus MNOPQRS.

            Thus we may say that Ust-Ishim, malta and Kostenki had a common origin – that they came to share, through their western cousins that survived – with the NEW arctic populations that came to populate Eurasia.

            Thus we got ‚Caucasians’ with paleolithic roots – that via their western ancestors share origin with the paleolithic Eurasians. Though, the specific outliers of Ust-Ishim, Kostenki and Malta were o-b-v-i-o_s-l-y not part of that re-population.
            October 19, 2015 at 7:09 AM

            Davidski said…
            Early European farmers carried minor frequencies of R1b-V88. So it’s possible that the European-specific LP allele spread from Neolithic Anatolia to Europe and Africa with V88, and then from Europe to the steppe, and finally to India with R1a-Z93.
            October 19, 2015 at 4:30 PM

            batman said…
            Given this landscape of northern Eurasia – as of 21-17.000 years ago, 15-14.000 AND 13-12.000 years ago – where would you expect any human being to survive the last 10.000 years of the paleolithic?

            Given the world map of LGM – where else could other populations of refugees have (possibilly) been living?

            October 24, 2015 at 3:24 PM

            batman said…
            Since the production of these maps a number of geological and paleo-biological results have revealed that the western shores of Scanianvia were ice-free during the late Weichselian. Consequently we have to correct the old maps, still present in all to many standard books describing ice-time.

            Revison of the Greenland chronometry:
            http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112646654/greenland-ice-not-a-reliable-model-for-younger-dryas-period/

            A Gulfstream across the North Sea throughout ice-time:
            http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/content/42/8/663.full?ijkey=h3AuZZV5q9nwk&keytype=ref&siteid=gsgeology

            Various ice-time-refugias in Fenno-Scandia (Swedish forum, links in english):
            http://www.arkeologiforum.se/forum/index.php/topic,2993.msg78859.html#msg78859

            October 24, 2015 at 4:49 PM

            Grey said…
            @batman
            it’s always struck me that if eskimo can live on ice sheets and get food from the ocean then why couldn’t people on the Atlantic edge of Europe.
            this population you are talking about living in an ice-free zone, would they fit the current model as WHG, SHG, EHG?
            October 25, 2015 at 3:30 PM

            Simon_W said…
            Iain Mathieson: „it seems plausible to me that the [European LP] allele first appeared in Central Europe, was spread around Europe by the LBK”

            and

            „We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK”

            huh?

            October 26, 2015 at 10:09 AM

            Karl_K said…
            @Davidski and @Chris Davies
            „So it’s possible that the European-specific LP allele spread from Neolithic Anatolia to Europe and Africa with V88, and then from Europe to the steppe, and finally to India with R1a-Z93.”

            Exactly. The big circle. This explains a lot, but of course the details should be very interesing. North Africa is always getting neglected. It is basically another harder to get to part of Europe.
            October 27, 2015 at 9:20 AM

            Grey said…
            @Simon_W

            „huh”

            Quite.

            the old theory – which was reasonable enough before the data came in – was the farmers brought LP with them and the frequency increased gradually in a cline going from SE to NW.

            that theory was killed by the data. it seems people are going through the process of mourning the old theory – which seems to be a general thing. eventually they’re going to have to give in – wherever LP started the frequency clearly went through the roof in north and west Europe – so reason? probably just calories (like Arabia and Sahel) or it would have spread more dramatically into southern Europe.
            October 28, 2015 at 3:39 PM

            batman said…
            @ Davidski

            „So it’s possible that the European-specific LP allele spread from Neolithic Anatolia to Europe and Africa with V88, and then from Europe to the steppe, and finally to India with R1a-Z93.”

            So how do this co-relate to the known distribution of the (european) LP allele – as in the linked mapped above?
            How does the LP do in Anatolia versus the SW Baltics?
            In which of these areas do we find the oldest known cows and horses in burials?
            March 15, 2017 at 2:07 PM

            …..

            No i co wystarczy? 🙂

            Polubienie

  8. Pingback: 196 Wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione liczebniki indogermańskie i ich wysokoenergetyczne PieRwotne PRa-Słowiańskie rdzenie, PieR+WS”y, PRW, PR 07 | SKRBH

    • Teoretycznie masz rację, patrz:

      STRo’P
      ZDRo”B
      ZDRo”W

      … ale S=Z i D=T i P=B=W i odwrotnie. To nie jest ubezdźwięcznienie, a jeśli już to nie takie, jak C/Z/S>H/G/K/T/D, itp.

      Polubienie

    • Piszę Ci jeszcze raz, że nie będę odpowiadał na nic co piszesz w C”elo’S’Ci, j.w. Jeśli chcesz odpowiedzi i danych zapytaj o to np. tu., gdzie mogę odpowiedzieć. Nie wiem, czy ma to być ogólnie znane, czy nie. Nie pentem zgadywał(a)! (To, żeby być wielopłciowyo politycznie poprawnym! )-:

      Patrz się na to, co puszczam, bo to logicznie jest dużo więcej, co z tego wycisnę. Mam 370 artykułów do zrobienia + pewno sporo więcej. Chcę skończyć z kfiadem fafroki i założyć się z kimś o coś, bo suszi Me i muszem siem trochem porechotać rubasznie z nowych-nazistowskich-gramatyków, do króćset!

      Masz jakiś swój Pra-Słowiański kfiad fafroki znaleziony albo do rozwalenia, co? Mam jeszcze z 5 wpisów o PieRWszeństwie języka PRa-Z/S+LoW+iańskiego nad FRa-Germańskim.

      Polubienie

    • Na stówę. Jak chcesz to pomyśl sobie o liście słów, które znali Łowcy, zanim jeszcze zostali Hodowcami, a następnie Rolnikami, czy jak zwał… Rozumiesz? To chyba Adam Smoliński napisał, że żeby być młynarzem, to nie trzeba rzenić się z córką młynarza, czy jakoś tak.

      Odpowiedziałaś sobie na 7 pytań tych z zamiast wstępu? Umiesz mi coś zarzucić z tego, co napisałem tam i dalej, hm? Mijam się gdzieś z prawdą? Lubisz jak to napisałem, czy tego nie cierpisz?

      Polubienie

      • Ugol to węgieł, więc po naszemu ugor powinien być węgier.
        A co ma mleko do Turków? Nie rozumiem o co chodzi.
        Mi się kojarzą z tour.
        Zobacz „turkotać «o motorach, maszynach, pojazdach będących w ruchu: wydawać krótkie, szybko następujące po sobie dźwięki»”. Jak byś usłyszał turkot, to kogo byś się spodziewał? Nie Turkutów?
        Masz taką liste słów HG?
        HG żwacza jeszcze nie znali?
        Ale przyznasz, że żwierz i zwierz może się pomerdać?

        Polubienie

        • Piję do tego Fielko-Turka i jego rzekomych zapożyczeń z Pra-Tureckiego / Sumeryjskiego… itd. Masz kilka artykułów i komentarzy o tym, jak to z tym było. Podważysz to, że Turkom z okolic Bajkału trochę daleko czasowo i nie tylko do pierwszych serów z Kujaw?

          Nie przykładam do turkotania i Turków wielkiej uwagi, bo to późne jest. Podważysz mi coś?

          Polubienie

          • https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietolerancja_laktozy

            (…)
            Nietolerancja laktozy u różnych grup etnicznych
            Większość ssaków traci zdolność efektywnego trawienia cukru mlecznego (laktozy) po zakończeniu okresu karmienia piersią (okres ten stanowi około 3% długości życia). U człowieka produkcja laktazy koniecznej do strawienia laktozy zwykle spada o 90% podczas pierwszych 4 lat życia, chociaż dokładny czas nastąpienia i przebieg tych zmian może się znacznie różnić u poszczególnych osób lub grup ludzkich. W pewnych populacjach ludzkich mutacja występująca w sekwencji regulatorowej genu kodującego laktazę położonego na chromosomie 2 chroni przed zanikiem produkcji laktazy u osób dorosłych, co pozwala na bezpieczną konsumpcję słodkiego mleka i produktów mlecznych przez okres całego życia. Mutacja ta występuje częściej w populacjach, które wcześnie udomowiły bydło.

            Mimo że większość ludzi pochodzenia północno-europejskiego wytwarza wystarczające ilości laktazy przez całe życie, niedobory laktazy są powszechne wśród ludzi pochodzących z Bliskiego Wschodu, Indii, części Afryki i ich potomków w innych częściach świata.

            Blisko 70% dorosłych wykazuje w pewnym stopniu nietolerancję laktozy. W Europie, w większości państw, niedostateczna produkcja laktazy występuje u 5% ludzi białych i znacznie więcej wśród innych grup etnicznych.

            W Polsce nietolerancja laktozy występuje u 1,5% niemowląt i dzieci oraz u 20-25% osób dorosłych. Dla porównania w Danii występuje u 6% społeczeństwa, Grecji 38%, Niemczech 15%, Anglii 6-34%. Inne grupy populacji przedstawiono w poniższej tabeli. Należy zaznaczyć, że różne źródła podają bardzo różne dane.

            Populacje Procent
            z nietolerancją

            Baskowie 0,3%
            Szwedzi 2%
            Europejczycy w Australii 4%
            Szwajcarzy 10%
            Amerykanie 6-25%
            Finowie 18%
            Tutsi 20%
            Afroamerykanie 45-81%
            Aborygeni 85%
            Bantu 89%
            Chińczycy 95%
            Azjaci – Daleki Wschód 65-100%
            Indianie 50-75%

            Testy genetyczne
            Genetyczna diagnostyka nietolerancji laktozy związana jest z poszukiwaniem mutacji w genie kodującym laktazę (LCT), która występuje w hipolaktazji pierwotnej. Analizowane są dwie pozycje w genie LCT: 13910 i 22018 i występujące w nich polimorfizmy[2]. (…)

            Przodkowie Baskow na stepie musieli lubić pić mleko prosto od krowy, nie sądzisz?

            Myślisz, że jacyś linkfiści brali pod uwagę zagadnienie tzw. tolerancji laktozy, bo to jest sednem, a nie jej brak, który był pierwotny,.. kiedy odtfaszali sobie coś tam? Pewno ni, aczkolwiek to np. KoSSinna widział na tych terenach tj. Dania i okolice, ten ich Urheimat, czy jak mu tam… Histslov widzi tam pierwsze kurhany, a Rudaweb początki ciałopalenia… Potem wszystko im się rozjeżdża, ale to widzą, jak i KoSSinna może i widzieć byłby i mógł dziś… Nie sądzisz?

            EHG i SHG i WHG wyglądają na coraz ciekawsze. Czyżby to jednak żywe „popłuczyny” po Doggerlandzie, tyle że to za późno..? Czy można połączyć zalanie Doggerlandu z nabyciem tzw. tolerancji laktazy?

            Polubienie

          • A i przejrzałem tego bidnego Fieko-Turka.

            http://sumerianturks.org/water.htm

            EXPLORING THE ROOTS OF MODERN CIVILIZATION:
            Sumerian and its relation to Gobeklitepe, Hurrian, Egyptian, Etruscan, Greek, Roman, Scythian, and other civilizations.
            Minoan Linear A , Origins of Indo-European Languages, Archaeogenetics and the birth of human language,
            Spread of languages from Siberia, Uralic and Turkish, The oldest language in Europe: Basque

            Patrz na co on powołuje się:

            https://www.academia.edu/30827735/BASQUE_AND_SUMERIAN

            BASQUE AND SUMERIAN
            Iurii Mosenkis

            Basque and Sumerian language parallels
            100-word

            exact equivalents
            ‘eye’ Basque b-egi ‘eye’ (Proto-North Caucasian *=agwV ‘to see’) : Sumerian igi ‘eye’
            ‘earth’ Basque lur ‘earth’ (Sin-Caucasian, cf. Avar raƛ ̣: ‘earth’) : Sumerian arali ‘earth’
            ‘night’ Basque gau ‘night’ : Sumerian ngi ‘night’ ‘belly’ Basque sabel ‘belly’ : Sumerian hašbar ‘belly’
            ‘dog’ Basque or ‘dog’ : Sumerian ur ‘dog’
            ‘come’ Basque -augin ‘come’ : Sumerian gana ‘come on!’
            ‘kill’ Basque -ro ‘kill’ : Sumerian rah ‘kill’
            ‘root’ B herro ‘root’ : Sur ‘root’

            100-word non-exact equivalents

            ‘hand’ Basque be-so ‘arm’ : Sumerian šu
            ‘hand’ ‘head’ Basque soin, soñ, suñ ‘shoulder, body’, possibly ‘head’ (soinegi, soñegi ‘shoulder’, -egi ‘place’: ‘shoulder as a place of head’?) : Sumerian sang ‘head’
            ‘blood’ Basque odol ‘blood’ (Sino-Caucasian: Preclassic Old Chinese d(h)ǝrʔ ‘sacrificialmeat’) : Sumerian dara ‘red’
            ‘see’ Basque ekusi ‘see’ : Sumerian haz ‘eyes’
            ‘bird’ Basque arano ‘eagle’ : Sumerian hurin ‘eagle’ (both might be Indo-European, cf.Greek or-n-is ‘bird’) (…)

            Nie sądzisz, że te kola, ale szczególnie ten Fielki-Turek ma raczej jakiś problem z górującym, gorejącym orłem? 🙂 Po przeczytaniu jego straszliwych dowodzeń językowych, no to odpuszczam sobie jakieś dogłębne studiowanie tej Sumeryjsko-Fielko-Tureckiej Teorii Języka Słońca, skoro ta teoria nie umi sobie poradzić z takim orłem.

            Poczytam to dla zasady, ale on i tak pije do Basków, jako Turków. Rudaweb powinien się teraz tym zacząć jarać, jak i J2, jako prawdą objawioną od Alinei… Wrzuca w to tureckich Etrusków i przełyka to i wszystko mu gra i bucy… Małe poświęcenia mogom siem zdarzać, ale wszystko inne musi ze spalonym R1a na Bałkanach grać! 🙂

            Ciekawe jak tam A.L. z tym jego słowiańskim stepem… Rudaweb powinien teraz dobrze stanąć w rozkroku i starać się żeby nikogo w jakiś sposób tymi twierdzeniami PCT nie urazić… hehehe

            Polubienie

        • (…) Masz taką liste słów HG? (…)

          Nie, ale bawię się myśleniem o tym. K+L”o’S+aK już tam był i to mimo tego, że na niego Po+L”oW+aLi, a nie na nim K+L”o’S+oW+aLi, nie sądzisz? Dla jaj zapisuję takie słowa do do wstępu do części poświęconej językoznawstwu.

          (…) HG żwacza jeszcze nie znali? Ale przyznasz, że żwierz i zwierz może się pomerdać? (…)

          Ładne rdzenie! 🙂 Myślę, że był Z”yW+aC” raczej,.. a Z”o’W+aC”+Ka to była „Ta co Żywi”, czyli Z”yW+aC”+Ka… 🙂 Drąż, drąż w żywych, a uparcie!

          Myślisz, że PIE=PS=EHG=Po-ANE/ENA to może być pomysł do obrony, hm?

          Polubienie

          • Co do żyć i żuć, czy żywot i żwać no to zwierz mógł pochodzić od obu.
            Są wśród zwierzat przeżuwacze. Jak żubr.
            Z kolei taką żywicę to niektórzy podobno żuli. Ale poprawniej chyba będzie żwali, bo gumę ze żwać dostaniemy po ż >> g, w >> m. Widzisz to? Żwa (żuwa) >> guma.
            Porównaj angielskie chew. Z naszą żwą. Albo jak wolisz żwaczką albo żwaką.
            Porównaj estonskie vaik – żywica jak żwaka
            Porównaj łotewskie sveķi – żywica jak żwaka
            Porównaj węgierskie gyanta – żywica jak żwąca. UF vaik i gyanta wyglądają na kompletnie nie pasujące do siebie.
            I z odtworzonym chew PIE *gyeu- „to chew” (source also of Old Church Slavonic živo „to chew,”
            Ja nie potrafię 1 głoski w PIE odtworzyć, ale u nas “ż” się zaklimatyzowało jak w żołądku.
            Nawet Chinczycy mają 咀嚼 Jǔjué – żuć.
            Co do „PIE=PS=EHG=Po-ANE/ENA”

            Polubienie

              • A może nie mam racji i estonskie vaik jest z prastarego języka. (chociaż finska pihka na to nie wskazuje) A my jedynie dołożyliśmy do niego przedrostek ”żi”, ”ży”.
                Bo zobacz latin Vita – życie.
                Co prawda etymolodzy mówia o Vita tak:
                ”From Proto-Italic *gʷītā. Possibly corresponds to a derivative of Proto-Indo-European *gʷih₃wo-teh₂ (compare Ancient Greek βίοτος (bíotos, “life”), Old Irish bethu, bethad, Irish beatha, Welsh bywyd, Old Church Slavonic животъ (životŭ, “life”), Lithuanian gyvatà (“life”), Sanskrit जीवित (jīvitá), Avestan gayo (accusative ǰyātum) „life”)), ultimately from *gʷeyh₃- (“to live”)”
                Widzisz, oni odtwarzają *gʷītā. Czyli sugerują, że przed italscy ludzie mieli dźwiek przed vita. A italscy ludzie ten dźwięk usuneli.
                Tylko co tu porównywać skoro Grecy i Celtowie mają dżwiek „b”. bíotos, beatha, bywyd.
                I tej zmiany nie wyjaśniają.
                Mam tu problem, bo mamy 2 słowa być i żyć. Byt i życie. I naprawdę sama już nie wiem które jest pierwsze. Co mi zasugerujesz? b jest starsze od w? Czy odwrotnie?
                Jaka mogła być kolejność? Łeb > głąb > głowa?
                Odtworzyli nawet Celtom Proto-Celtic *biwotūts, from *biwos. Ale to mi zupełnie nie pasuje.

                Polubienie

                • Ech… *gʷītā, *gʷih₃wo-teh₂… Widzę, że wierzysz w odtfoszenia, no to masz moje: *Z”iWTā, *Z”Wih₃Wo-Teh. Nie widzisz t Z”yW+iC’ Z”yW+oTa, bo to za trudne?

                  Coś zamilkłaś w sprawie pierwszych tureckich serów, itp. Stłukłem Ci zabawkę? Poddajesz się?

                  Polubienie

                • To nie.
                  Ale wyjasnij mi greko-celtyckie B. Chcę wiedzieć skąd to?
                  I weź pod uwage nasz byt i żyć.
                  Żależy mi na rozwiązaniu 2 części mojego ostatniego komentarza.

                  Polubienie

                • B jest Pierwotnym dźwiękiem. Zamiast P wymawiają je Arabowie itp. To może być pozostałość po „bardziej południowej” trasie pochodu ludów mówiących tymi językami… Tzw. greka traci dźwięk zapisywany znakiem W jako zasada. Tracenie dźwięków to też ogólniejsza zasada…

                  Polubienie

  9. Są różne mapy.

    Nie opowiedziałeś mi o słowie żuć.
    I żwać, żwacz, żwawy, żwierz, żwę.
    I dlaczego żwierz i zwierz brzmią podobnie?

    Polubienie

        • Czyli jak? Ancient Greek βίοτος (bíotos, “life”) jest pierwotne wobec latin Vita?

          Ta mapa nie zawiera Ameryki.
          Z jakimi genami, językami byś połączył granatowe plamki?
          Co tam jest w Pd wsch Afryce?

          Polubienie

          • Być i Wyć. Czy jedno musi pochodzić od drugiego?

            (…) Ta mapa nie zawiera Ameryki. (…)

            To Ty ją pokazałaś…

            (…) Z jakimi genami, językami byś połączył granatowe plamki? (…)

            Serożerów. 🙂

            (..) Co tam jest w Pd wsch Afryce? (…)

            Nie mam pojęcia, Oko Pustyni i Atlantyda? To w Arabii to może być R1a, jak i w Pendżabie, albo coś lokalnego po Mohendżo Daro? Oni też mieli krowy udomowione…

            Polubienie

            • Zadałeś mi pytanie

              „Myślisz, że PIE=PS=EHG=Po-ANE/ENA to może być pomysł do obrony, hm?”

              Odpowiedziałam, że na teraz genetyka tego nie potwierdza. Zapytaj Quahadi’go. On wydawał się ogarniać domieszki.

              I nie pisz, że EHG to ekskluzywnie R1a. Dotychczas do EHG zaliczono 3 próbki. Ydna R1a, J, R1b. 3 różne hg. Widziałeś autosomalne wyniki Vasilievki?

              Być i wyć mi nie pomaga.
              W obu językach oznacza życie.

              Dla mnie kwestia B i W jest istotna. Bo jeśli B było starsze, to Celtowie i Grecy rozpoczęli indoeuropeizację.
              Jeśli W no to jest możliwa indoeuropeizacja Waskonczyków.

              Polubienie

              • (…) Odpowiedziałam, że na teraz genetyka tego nie potwierdza. Zapytaj Quahadi’go. On wydawał się ogarniać domieszki. (…)

                A to niby dlaczego? On też pił do PS=EHG, nie pamiętasz? Może coś czyta tu i sam Ci napisze…

                (…) I nie pisz, że EHG to ekskluzywnie R1a. Dotychczas do EHG zaliczono 3 próbki. Ydna R1a, J, R1b. 3 różne hg. Widziałeś autosomalne wyniki Vasilievki? (…)

                A gdzie ja niby tak robiem, co? A Afontowa Gora?

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora

                Afontova Gora is a Late Upper Paleolithic Siberian complex of archaeological sites located on the left bank of the Yenisei River near the city of Krasnoyarsk, Russia. Afontova Gora has cultural and genetic links to the people from Mal’ta-Buret’. The complex was first excavated in 1884 by I. T. Savenkov.[1]

                Afontova Gora is a complex, consisting of multiple stratigraphic layers, of five or more campsites.[1] The campsites shows evidence of mammoth hunting and were likely the result of an eastward expansion of mammoth hunters.[2] (…)

                (…)

                Human remains

                The bodies of two individuals, known as Afontova Gora 2 (AG-2) and Afontova Gora 3 (AG-3) were discovered within the complex. (The name Afontova Gora 1 refers to the remains of a canid.)

                Afontova Gora 2

                The human fossil remains of Afontova Gora 2 were discovered in the 1920s at Afontova Gora II and stored at the Hermitage Museum.[1] The remains are dated to around 17,000 BP[11] (16,930-16,490 BP[12]).

                In 2009, researchers visited the Hermitage Museum and extracted DNA from the humerus of Afontova Gora 2.[13] Despite significant contamination, researchers succeeded in extracting low coverage genomes.[11] DNA analysis confirmed that the individual was male.[11]

                The individual showed close genetic affinities to Mal’ta 1 (Mal’ta boy).[14] Afontova Gora 2 also showed more genetic affinity for the Karitiana people versus Han Chinese.[14] Around 1.9-2.7% of the genome was Neanderthal in origin.[12]

                According to Fu et al.,[12] AG-2 belongs to a now-rare Y-DNA haplogroupQ1a1 (also known as Q-F746 and Q-NWT01).

                Afontova Gora 3

                In 2014, more human fossil remains were discovered at Afontova Gora II during salvage excavation before the construction of a new bridge over the Yenesei River.[12] The remains belonged to two different females: the atlas of an adult female and the mandible and five lower teeth of a teenage girl (Afontova Gora 3) estimated to be around 14–15 years old.[4] Initially, the new findings were presumed to be roughly contemporaneous with Afontova Gora 2.[12] In 2017, direct AMS dating revealed that Afontova Gora 3 is dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC (14,710±60 BP).[15]

                The mandible of Afontova Gora 3 was described as being gracile.[16]

                Researchers analyzing the dental morphology of Afontova Gora 3 concluded that the teeth showed distinct characteristics with most similarities to another fossil (the Listvenka child) from the Altai-Sayan region and were not western nor eastern.[17] Afontova Gora 3 and Listvenka showed distinct dental characteristics that were also different from other Siberian fossils, including those from Mal’ta.[18]

                DNA was extracted from one of the teeth of Afontova Gora 3 and analyzed.[12] Compared to Afontova Gora 2, researchers were able to obtain higher coverage genomes from Afontova Gora 3.[12] DNA analysis confirmed that the individual was female.[12] mtDNA analysis revealed that Afontova Gora 3 belonged to Haplogroup R1b.[12]Around 2.9-3.7% of the genome was Neanderthal in origin.[12]

                In a 2016 study, researchers determined that Afontova Gora 2Afontova Gora 3, and Mal’ta 1 (Mal’ta boy) shared common descent and were clustered together in a Mal’ta cluster.[12] Genetically, Afontova Gora 3 is not closer to Afontova Gora 2 when compared to Mal’ta 1.[12] When compared to Mal’ta 1, the Afontova Gora 3 lineage apparently contributed more to modern humans and is genetically closer to Native Americans.[12]

                Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele.[15] (…)

                (…) Być i wyć mi nie pomaga. W obu językach oznacza życie. Dla mnie kwestia B i W jest istotna. Bo jeśli B było starsze, to Celtowie i Grecy rozpoczęli indoeuropeizację. Jeśli W no to jest możliwa indoeuropeizacja Waskonczyków. (…)

                A są jakieś dowody na to, że w Pra-Słowiańskim nie było jednocześnie dźwięków zapisywanych znakami W i B?

                Polubienie

                • Chodziło mi , że moze Quahadi dostarzczy argumenty. Na PS = poANE.
                  ANE był językiem północnych Eurasians.
                  Ale też ANE partycypował w językach łowców WSHG, EHG i CHG/IranN. Więc mógł być jakąś pramatką.

                  Poza tym z przykrością stwierdzam, ze mi nie pomagasz w badaniach. Nadal nie wiem co z B.
                  Moja hipoteza jest taka, że BBC ludzie mówili prawaskonskim językiem, w którego repertuarze brakowało W. Dlatego IE słowa dostosowali do swoich artykulacyjnych możliwości. Stąd np. Andaluzja (od Wandalów) albo zamiana W >> B. Jak łacińskie Vita >> celt Bethu.
                  Wówczas języki celtyckie można by podsumować jako nakład IE na prawaskonskie podłoże.
                  Ale mogę się mylić i mogło być całkiem odwrotnie.
                  P.s Czy obecnie w języku Basków występuje dźwięk W?

                  Polubienie

                • (…) Chodziło mi , że moze Quahadi dostarzczy argumenty. Na PS = poANE. (…)

                  Może, ale to Ty powinnaś dostarczyć argumenty świadczące przeciwko temu, nie sądzisz?

                  (…) ANE był językiem północnych Eurasians. Ale też ANE partycypował w językach łowców WSHG, EHG i CHG/IranN. Więc mógł być jakąś pramatką. (…)

                  NIby logicznie, ale… czy domieszki = języki? Ja tak tego nie widzę, ale to jest jakiś punkt widzenia. Ja stawiam na Tradycję… Co z Neandertalczykami, skoro mamy nawet do 7% ich DNA, czyli domieszek tyż?

                  (…) Poza tym z przykrością stwierdzam, ze mi nie pomagasz w badaniach. Nadal nie wiem co z B. (…)

                  No co Ty nie powiesz? A może jednak?

                  (…) Moja hipoteza jest taka, że BBC ludzie mówili prawaskonskim językiem, w którego repertuarze brakowało W. Dlatego IE słowa dostosowali do swoich artykulacyjnych możliwości.(…)

                  Pełna zgoda, ale czy to był j. tureckawaty, czy kartwelski, czy jeszcze inny? Pamiętasz, że tzw. Grecy ubezdźwięczniali dźwięk zapisywany znakiem W, patrz WieDza > (W)eiDe?

                  (…) Stąd np. Andaluzja (od Wandalów) albo zamiana W >> B. Jak łacińskie Vita >> celt Bethu. (…)

                  A (W)Andaluzja, to nie jest przypadkiem późna arabska nazwa?

                  (…) Wówczas języki celtyckie można by podsumować jako nakład IE na prawaskonskie podłoże. (…)

                  Oczywoście! Podobnie jest z italskimi , a tzw. germańskie to nakładka na to i zachodniego CWC, jak przy tworzeniu się BB, ale dodatkowo jeszcze język I1, co to przyłaził z północy przez Danię…

                  (…) Ale mogę się mylić i mogło być całkiem odwrotnie. (…)

                  Czyli niby jak, co? J2 była zarówno Pra-Semicka i Pra-Słowiańska, jak to sobie Reich wydumał, a Rudaweb do tego się przytulił?

                  (…) P.s Czy obecnie w języku Basków występuje dźwięk W? (…)

                  Wygląda na to, że masz rację patrz:

                  https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%99zyk_baskijski

                  (…)
                  Fonetyka
                  Spółgłoski
                  W języku baskijskim występują następujące spółgłoski:

                  dwuwargowe dziąsłowe apikalne dziąsłowe laminalne zadziąsłowe podniebienne miękkopodniebienne krtaniowe
                  zwarte bezdźwięczne p t tt [c] k
                  zwarte dźwięczne b d dd [ɟ] g
                  nosowe m n
                  szczelinowe f s [] z [s] x [ʃ] h
                  zwarto-szczelinowe ts [ʦ̺] tz [ʦ] tx [ʧ]
                  półotwarte l j
                  uderzeniowe r [ɾ]
                  drżące rr [r]

                  Spółgłoski /n/ i /l/ mają podniebienne alofony [ɲ] i [ʎ] po samogłosce /i/. J może brzmieć jak [], ż [ʒ] lub [h] w zależności od dialektu.

                  Samogłoski

                  W języku baskijskim istnieje 5 samogłosek: /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/ i /u/. Brzmią one tak samo jak ich polskie odpowiedniki. W niektórych dialektach istnieje szósta samogłoska ü /ø/. Ton i iloczas nie są fonemiczne.
                  (…)

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

                  Nie ma dźwięku zapisywanego znakiem W…

                  Polubienie

  10. To samo jest z Bovine from Bovinus.
    Cytat o bos “Borrowed from Osco-Umbrian, most likely Sabellic (vs. expected Latin **ūs ~ **vōs), from Proto-Italic *gʷōs; ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *gʷṓws, which also gave Ancient Greek βοῦς (boûs), Sanskrit गो (go) (nominative singular gaús), and English cow.”
    I znowu mamy greckie βοῦς (boûs). I celtyckie “Old Irish bó, from Proto-Celtic *bāus, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷṓws.”
    Czy z tego nie wynika, ze bydło jest późnym słowem. Bull jest pożyczka od Celtów?
    No i wg nich „b” zastąpiła odtworzone *gʷ. Tak jak poprzednio. Czyli nasze Ż. Więc współczesnemu wołowi ucieliśmy ż?

    Polubienie

  11. Czy „PIE=PS=EHG=Po-ANE/ENA”
    Nie wiem. Ja bym nie chciała cię zniechęcić, ale to wygląda że w zasadzie wszystkie języki to pidżyny. Nawet PIE mógł nie istnieć. I nie wiadomo czego szukamy.
    Jeśli ENA to wschód Azji no to chyba nie PIE.
    ANE jak wcześniej pisałam jest szerokie i stare. Malta i AG miały odpowiednio R* i Q, więc ojcowskie haplogrupy są niby związane ze Słowianami (R1a), ale zauważ ich pokrewieństwo również z R2 (Dravidian?), Q (amerindian i Jenisejan), R1b (np. Czad i Bask).
    Z kolei które współczesne populacje mają najwięcej tego ANE komponentu?
    Z wiki “Flegontov et al. (2015) found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.”
    Więc jenisejan, ugrian i amerindian. Ameryka i Syberia.
    Więc jeśli zachowali I ciągłość genetyczną I autosomalną z ANE to jak chcesz z nich zrobić PS? Albo odwrotnie. Jak wywieść PS bezpośrednio z ANE?
    No mamy człowieka Manś u Mansów. Ale czy to wystarczy?
    Z kolei czadyjski łączy z jenisejskimi tonalność.
    A ergatywność jenisejskie z kaukaskimi, baskijskim i niektórymi językami Indian w Ameryce Północnej.
    Kecki ma rozbudowaną fleksję. Słowianski też.
    W Wiki inne fragmenty. „It (ANE) is also reported in modern-day Europeans (7%–25% ANE admixture)” “Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE.” Tu jest coś dziwnego z tym 75%, bo dotychczas czytałam o 10%.
    “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer (CHG) is represented by the Satsurblia individual dated ~13 kya (from the Satsurblia cave in Georgia), and carried 36% ANE-derived admixture.[8] While the rest of their ancestry is derived from the Dzudzuana cave individual dated ~26 kya, which lacked ANE-admixture”
    “Iran Neolithic (Iran_N) individuals dated ~8.5 kya carried 50% ANE-derived admixture and 50% Dzudzuana-related admixture,[8] marking them as different from other Near-Eastern and Anatolian Neolithics who didn’t have ANE admixture.”
    Jak ty sobie z tym poradzisz? Co?

    Polubienie

    • (…) Czy „PIE=PS=EHG=Po-ANE/ENA” Nie wiem. Ja bym nie chciała cię zniechęcić, ale to wygląda że w zasadzie wszystkie języki to pidżyny. Nawet PIE mógł nie istnieć. I nie wiadomo czego szukamy. (…)

      Pełna zgoda, z tym że istnieją porównywalne dane i na podstawie porównanych danych można wyciągać jakieś wnioski lub ich przesłanki, nieprawdaż? PIE to wg Mię (ale pewno nie tylko) język EHG, kojarzonych z R1a, Po-ANE / EAN, czyli zachodniego ANE. Patrz na to jako dłuuugą tradycję Łowców, którzy jednak łazili sobie jak Żyłosie se wymyśliły, nie sądzisz?

      Trzeba zrozumieć Łowców i ich język, a nie szukać tylko rdzenia do np. motyki. Płaski pług położył się i leżał w języku jak płoza już długo wcześniej, niż zaczęto udomawiać np. tury, czy konie.

      (…) Jeśli ENA to wschód Azji no to chyba nie PIE. (…)

      Jeśli ENA to nie „zachodnie ANE”, no to wprowadzam w błąd i przepraszam!

      (…) ANE jak wcześniej pisałam jest szerokie i stare. Malta i AG miały odpowiednio R* i Q, więc ojcowskie haplogrupy są niby związane ze Słowianami (R1a), ale zauważ ich pokrewieństwo również z R2 (Dravidian?), Q (amerindian i Jenisejan), R1b (np. Czad i Bask). Z kolei które współczesne populacje mają najwięcej tego ANE komponentu? Z wiki “Flegontov et al. (2015) found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.” Więc jenisejan, ugrian i amerindian. Ameryka i Syberia. Więc jeśli zachowali I ciągłość genetyczną I autosomalną z ANE to jak chcesz z nich zrobić PS? Albo odwrotnie. Jak wywieść PS bezpośrednio z ANE? (…)

      Brawo! Nie bezpośrednio z ANE, bo to może za głęboko. Rdzenie myślę, że potwierdzą wspólną pierwotną warstwę sprzed zamknięcia się przejścia przez obecną cieśninę Beringa. AF tu taczej mi pasuje. Idziemy na zachód, do domu, patrz Kostionki, Sungir, Vestonice, itp.

      EHG to obecnie pokrywa się z R1a. Do CWC nie ma już żadnych wątpliwości, co do jej Pra-Aryjskiści. Co do Alexandria z niby Z93, no to lipa, bo nie może to być Przodek dla CWC. Podobnie jak R1b z Yamna. Botaj i tureckie sery, a także słowiański step i wspólnotę słowiano-sarmacko-scytyjską, itp zadeptał 100% baskijski Duke2, nie sądzisz?

      (..) No mamy człowieka Manś u Mansów. Ale czy to wystarczy?
      Z kolei czadyjski łączy z jenisejskimi tonalność.
      A ergatywność jenisejskie z kaukaskimi, baskijskim i niektórymi językami Indian w Ameryce Północnej.
      Kecki ma rozbudowaną fleksję. Słowianski też. (…)

      Dawidski jakoś niedawno na mapce pokazał najstarsze R1a przez CWC, ale i nie pamiętam jakie próbki, zachodnich Syberyjczyków, np. może i Przodków Ketów właśnie. Ja już jakiś czas temu napisałem o o 90 stopni obróconej 8, jako skrótowej mapce dla wszystkiego od Atlantyku do Bajkału, lub nawed dalej do Pacyfiku.

      Czytałaś coś o garnkach ze wschodniej Syberii, które około 10,000 – 9,000 lat temu przywędrowały jakoś do Europy?

      Co do odmiany, no to tu masz ślad. Z 5 lat temu pisałem o pracce z takiego polskiego językowego miesięcznika, dotyczącej powstania odmiany, czyli flaksji, czyli tzw. j. syntetycznych. Patrz na zachód od Guralu, gdzie to doprowadziło do powstanie Języka Pra-Słowiańskiego, czyli tego przed przybyciem Ugro-Finów nad Bałtyk, jakieś 3,500 lat temu, ale i dużo wcześniej, patrz zachodnie CWC „indoeuropeizujące” baskijskich R1b z BB… Stąd masz wszystko, i 100% Basków, co to poszli wytłukując wszystko na ich drodze, a to Italo-Celtów, a to w końcu „Germanów”, czyli jakichś tam „braci”, czy kogoś na wschód od Renu… Całe południe to zawijasy Po-CWC na wschód do Kotliny Fergańskiej i dalej na zachód. Potwierdzają to ubezdźwięcznienia przez Skałkaz, do Albanii…

      (…) W Wiki inne fragmenty. „It (ANE) is also reported in modern-day Europeans (7%–25% ANE admixture)” “Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE.” Tu jest coś dziwnego z tym 75%, bo dotychczas czytałam o 10%. (…)

      Miło mi, że dostrzegasz niewiadome dane w dziwnych okolicznościach. Wszystko o domieszkach to pływanie, nie zauważyłaś? Pomyśl teraz o swoich Neandertalczykach i naszemu do 4% ich DNA… Coś tam jednak po sobie pozostawili, może ten pierwotny język, którego nie mają Afrykanie? Rozumiesz?

      (…) “Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer (CHG) is represented by the Satsurblia individual dated ~13 kya (from the Satsurblia cave in Georgia), and carried 36% ANE-derived admixture.[8] While the rest of their ancestry is derived from the Dzudzuana cave individual dated ~26 kya, which lacked ANE-admixture”
      “Iran Neolithic (Iran_N) individuals dated ~8.5 kya carried 50% ANE-derived admixture and 50% Dzudzuana-related admixture,[8] marking them as different from other Near-Eastern and Anatolian Neolithics who didn’t have ANE admixture.” Jak ty sobie z tym poradzisz? Co?(…)

      A co tu gadać?

      https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

      Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry

      Iosif Lazaridis, Anna Belfer-Cohen, Swapan Mallick, Nick Patterson, Olivia Cheronet, Nadin Rohland, Guy Bar-Oz, Ofer Bar-Yosef, Nino Jakeli, Eliso Kvavadze, David Lordkipanidze, Zinovi Matzkevich, Tengiz Meshveliani, Brendan J. Culleton, Douglas J. Kennett, Ron Pinhasi, David Reich
      doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/423079

      Abstract
      The earliest ancient DNA data of modern humans from Europe dates to ∼40 thousand years ago1-4, but that from the Caucasus and the Near East to only ∼14 thousand years ago5,6, from populations who lived long after the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) ∼26.5-19 thousand years ago7. To address this imbalance and to better understand the relationship of Europeans and Near Easterners, we report genome-wide data from two ∼26 thousand year old individuals from Dzudzuana Cave in Georgia in the Caucasus from around the beginning of the LGM.

      Surprisingly, the Dzudzuana population was more closely related to early agriculturalists from western Anatolia ∼8 thousand years ago8 than to the hunter-gatherers of the Caucasus from the same region of western Georgia of ∼13-10 thousand years ago5. Most of the Dzudzuana population’s ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the ‘Villabruna cluster’3, but it also had ancestry from a lineage that had separated from the great majority of non-African populations before they separated from each other, proving that such ‘Basal Eurasians’6,9 were present in West Eurasia twice as early as previously recorded5,6. We document major population turnover in the Near East after the time of Dzudzuana, showing that the highly differentiated Holocene populations of the region6 were formed by ‘Ancient North Eurasian’3,9,10 admixture into the Caucasus and Iran and North African11,12 admixture into the Natufians of the Levant. We finally show that the Dzudzuana population contributed the majority of the ancestry of post-Ice Age people in the Near East, North Africa, and even parts of Europe, thereby becoming the largest single contributor of ancestry of all present-day West Eurasians.

      https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full

      (…) The Dzudzuana samples represent the earliest ancient modern human DNA outside of Europe, Siberia, and China (Fig. 1b). In the local context, they help us answer the question of the relationship of Ice Age populations of the region to their post-glacial successors5: was there discontinuity in the Caucasus as in Europe? A broader issue that we wished to address is the changing relationship between human populations from Europe and the Near East, as the Caucasus is situated at the border between them. The Villabruna cluster has been modeled as contributing to both the ∼30kya Věstonice and ∼20kya El Mirón-cluster populations3, suggesting that it must have existed somewhere in relatively unmixed form long before the oldest genetic data we have from it at ∼14kya3,5. However, it is unlikely that the Villabruna cluster sojourned in mainland Europe, as members of the cluster have been attested there only by ∼14kya, marking an increased affinity of these European populations of the time to Near Eastern ones3.

      Was there migration at the time from mainland Europe to the Near East or vice versa, or, indeed from a geographically intermediate Ice Age refugium in southeast Europe, Anatolia, or the circum-Pontic (Black Sea) region that might explain the affinity of post-glacial Levantine and Anatolian populations to those of Europe6? It is also unknown how the affinity between early populations in the eastern European-Caucasus-Iran zone6 first arose.

      <

      h5> Eastern European hunter-gatherers (EHG)16 ∼8kya can be modeled as a mixture of peoples of WHG and Upper Paleolithic Siberians first known ∼24kya10 (also known as ‘Ancient North Eurasians’ (ANE)). Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG)—sampled in Georgia in Satsurblia and Kotias Klde caves <50km from Dzudzuana5—were genetically intermediate between EHG and the first agriculturalists of Iran sampled from the Zagros mountains (Iran_N; ∼10kya)6,13.
      (…)

      CHG to wygląda i WGH i EHG i ANE. Wszystko mieszało się, bo Łowcy łazili za Żyłowiami / Żywosiami.

      Myślę, że jak przyjrzysz się nazwiskom, które wymienione są przy tej pracy, to powiem Ci, że to wszystko pachnie mi zagadkowo i jakoś tradycyjnie tak samo nijak pustynnie. Chodzi tu wg Mię o ratowanie południa i wschodu, patrz „ex oriente lux”…

      https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/dzudzuana-ice-age-foragers-different.html

      Polubienie

  12. „Może, ale to Ty powinnaś dostarczyć argumenty świadczące przeciwko temu, nie sądzisz?”
    Ojejej. Postaraj się mnie zrozumieć, przecież ja jedynie odpowiedziałam, że pomysł PS = poANE trudno będzie obronić.

    Dlatego, że poANE ma potomków w męskiej linii R1a i R1b i R2 i Q. Wszystkie te linie są Malta krewnymi. Chociaż mówią różnymi językami.
    Więc i ich języki są w jakimś mniejszym czy większym stopniu poANE. Np. Botai faceci R1b byli genetycznie bardzo ANE ale też trochę ENA ze wschodu Azji. Kto wie jaki był ich język.
    EHG oczywiście poANE, ale zmieszało się z WHG.

    Dlatego trudno ustalić czy dowieść, ze akurat PS miałby być bardziej poANE niż inne.

    Czy zauważyłeś, że w ogóle na Syberii nie ma IE języków? Poza rosyjskim. Co powiesz o tym?

    Argument za, to może być gen jasnych włosów. Który łączy AG z Europą pnwsch. W innych rejonach pn Eurazji blondyni to bywają raczej po fryzjerze. Ale mamy tu słowianski, bałtycki germański i finski. Więc jeśli AG przybyła do nas z językiem ANE to musi to być coś co mamy wspólnego.

    Polubienie

  13. „(…) Ale mogę się mylić i mogło być całkiem odwrotnie. (…)
    Czyli niby jak, co?”
    Ta odwrotnośc dotyczyła zamiany b<>w. Czyli nie w>>b, lecz b>>w. Wówczas Celtowie zachowaliby pierwotny dźwięk a łacina to ich popłuczki.
    Dlatego ciągle cię pytam co wg ciebie było starsze. I dlatego podałam przykład – łeb.
    To brzmi jakoś archaiczniej i podstawowo. A głąb, głowa, człowiek – jakieś nowsze formy.
    Zauważ, że łów/łowy wcale nie musiał być pierwotny. Mogło mi się tylko tak wydawać. Bo mamy coś jak „ub”, co jest w ubój, ubić. A to mogło się przekształcic w łupy, łby (łuby? łubianka «prostokątny, otwarty koszyk na owoce – teraz mi brzmi jak prapra od łowców a nawet zbieraczy).
    Pomyśl proszę jeszcze raz.

    „Być i Wyć.”
    Wyć jest od wyłka.

    Polubienie

    • Być jest od byłka, a Łyko od Łydki… A skąd wiesz, że nie istniał w Po-ANE i Łoś / L”oS’ i Wąs / Wa”S i Bóść / Bo’S’C’, hm?

      Podałem, że Baskowie nie wymawiają dźwięku zapisywanego znakiem W, winc o sochozi?

      Polubienie

      • Wyłki wyją i już. Jak i wyjce.
        „I dlatego podałam przykład – łeb. To brzmi jakoś archaiczniej i podstawowo. A głąb, głowa, człowiek – jakieś nowsze formy. Zauważ, że łów/łowy wcale nie musiał być pierwotny. Mogło mi się tylko tak wydawać. Bo mamy coś jak „ub”, co jest w ubój, ubić. A to mogło się przekształcic w łupy, łby (łuby? łubianka «prostokątny, otwarty koszyk na owoce – teraz mi brzmi jak prapra od łowców a nawet zbieraczy).
        Pomyśl proszę jeszcze raz.”
        Chcę znać twoje zdanie. Teraz przerabiam (ł)ubój >> łów.
        „Podałem, że Baskowie nie wymawiają dźwięku zapisywanego znakiem W, winc o sochozi?”
        OK
        Ale Wąs. Może to to co odróżniało dorosłych Moanś od (ch)łopców.
        Wąs – w celtyckich feusag, mwstas. Wcale nie ma B.
        Mi się wydawało, ze wąs i włos jakoś są zbieżne.
        To wygląda jakby miały coś z ustami, czy mi sie wydaje?

        Polubienie

        • (…) Wyłki wyją i już. Jak i wyjce. (…)

          No tak, ale my mamy to WyCie i ByCie i BiCie i L”yKo (oboczne lub wtórnie ubezdźwięcznione?) też. Nie widzę problemu.

          (…) „I dlatego podałam przykład – łeb. To brzmi jakoś archaiczniej i podstawowo. A głąb, głowa, człowiek – jakieś nowsze formy. Zauważ, że łów/łowy wcale nie musiał być pierwotny. Mogło mi się tylko tak wydawać. Bo mamy coś jak „ub”, co jest w ubój, ubić. A to mogło się przekształcic w łupy, łby (łuby? łubianka «prostokątny, otwarty koszyk na owoce – teraz mi brzmi jak prapra od łowców a nawet zbieraczy).
          Pomyśl proszę jeszcze raz.” Chcę znać twoje zdanie. Teraz przerabiam (ł)ubój >> łów. (…)

          Może być, patrz L”+oRKa…

          (…) Ale Wąs. Może to to co odróżniało dorosłych Moanś od (ch)łopców. Wąs – w celtyckich feusag, mwstas. Wcale nie ma B. Mi się wydawało, ze wąs i włos jakoś są zbieżne. To wygląda jakby miały coś z ustami, czy mi sie wydaje? (…)

          Potwierdzam. Podobuję się Mię ten FeuSaG < WeuS+aG < Wa”S+aC”… 🙂

          Polubienie

  14. Tu masz super ciekawostkę. Pisałem już o tym…

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285936293_Early_pottery_in_Afroeurasia_-_Origins_and_possible_routes_of_dispersal

    Early pottery in Afroeurasia – Origins and possible routes of dispersal

    Detlef Gronenborn
    January 2008

    Abstract
    Written from a Central European perspective, this chapter will present a coarse overview of recent developments in studies on early container pottery emergence in Afroeur-asia. In order to understand the wider implications of the technological innovation and its spread to Europe, it is necessary to take a broad view and to investigate the current status of knowledge for the various centres of origin for pottery. It appears that early container pottery emerged independently in two broad zones, eastern Asia and West- and northern Africa, towards the end of the Pleistocene and during the earlier Holocene. Such container pottery was manufactured by small bands of sedentary or semi-sedentary hunter-gatherer-fishers. The new technology spread from these centres, but it is at present unclear whether pottery reached Europe from these distant source areas, as chronological and spatial gaps rupture the proposed routes of diffusion. A third centre of origin is the northern „Fertile Crescent”, where container pottery emerges in the course of the 6 th millennium cal BC among farming societies, possibly independently of the other regions. The spread of pottery into Europe itself appears to follow long-term communication routes across western Afroeurasia which are also reflected in the three different neolithisation streams.

    Polubienie

  15. Sam poruszyłeś wąsy. Więc na tym przykładzie opowiedz mi o językach.
    Ja zrobiłam 1 krok i sprawdziłam jak są wąsy baskijskie.
    Bibotea
    BiBoTea
    Gdyby to było słowiańskie słowo jak byś je wywiódł?
    Nie znalazłam etymologi, ale sama sobie sprawdziłam.
    Bibotea = Bi (2) + botea (moc) = 2 moce, 2 potęgi, podwójna potencja.
    Musieli wierzyć, ze ogolony traci moc.
    Co zauważyłam to podobieństwo botea z łacińskim potens czyli moc, potęga, potencja.
    Od lat. posse
    1. power, ability
    2. potentiality, capability of being
    3. (Late Latin) force, body of men
    4. (Medieval Latin) territory, dominion

    Polubienie

  16. W okolicznych językach poCeltiberyjskich niestety nic podobnego do celtyckich wąsów nie ma. Ani mwstas ani twój upodobany feusag.
    Ja bym powiedziała, ze to słowo co nieco przypomina baskijską nazwę Bibotea.
    Bo Portugale i Hispano mają Bigode, Bigote.
    Więc u nas bigot to:
    bigot – pobożniś, świętoszek, dewota.
    Można spróbować inaczej
    Bigot = Bi (2) + got (Got) = 2 Goty (nie wiem czy vizy czy ostro)
    Albo Bigod = Bi (2) + god (bóg) = 2 bogi = podwójnie pobożny
    Myślisz, że God (bóg) miał dłuuugie do kostek wąsy? Albo może pobożni zdewociali Goci?
    Pasuje ci to?
    Oficjalna, naukowa wiktionary o etymologii ibero wąsów
    „Perhaps from German bei Gott (“by God”), because, when taking an oath, some men, once they said „by God”, aimed at the superior lip with the index finger, symbolising forming the cross with the fingers and kissing it. Compare Portuguese bigode.”
    O port. Bigode
    Etymology Unknown. Theories include:
    • from Middle High German bi got (“by God”) (modern bei Gott (“by God”)), due to the use of moustache by Landsknecht mercenaries;
    • from vigote, diminutive of viga (“beam”).
    Cognate with Galician bigote, Mirandese bigote, Asturian bigote, Spanish bigote, Aragonese bigote and Catalan bigoti.
    Dołączyli foto Bigota

    Myślisz coś?

    Polubienie

  17. Możesz sprawdzić jak są wąsy w łacinskim?
    Mi się tłumacz chyba rozwalił. Bo w łacinie wąsy “et superius labrum radit” nijak się mają do bigotów.
    Zawsze ufałam, że Portugale/Hispano to języki połacinskie.
    Ale widocznie nie zawsze. Wspólnych wąsów nie mieli?
    U Francuzów – moustache
    U Rumunów – mustață
    U Włochów – baffi

    Polubienie

  18. Czesi sa dobrym przykładem na niezależność.
    Mają zupełnie od czapy wąsy – knír.
    Bardzo mnie ciekawi co słowiańskiego etymologicznie dla nich zaproponujesz?
    Np. co wg Czechów oznacza kniż? Kniżny facet – ja to myślałam, że od książek. Czy ruskich knig. A to po prostu jakiś zarośnięty.
    A może knír pochodziło od knura? No wiesz świni ze szczeciną. Co?

    Polubienie

      • Nie dojdę do pra wąsów.
        Może podaj po 10 słów związanych z migracja z bliskiego wschodu – czyli związanych z rolnikami i tych ze stepu, nomadami pasterzami, krowiarzami etc.
        Nie wydaje mi się słowianskie słowo Agrós – chociaż agroturystyka kojarzy się ze wsia.

        Polubienie

        • Agóry Znosz?

          Słowa badam. Pomyśl o tym:

          https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285936293_Early_pottery_in_Afroeurasia_-_Origins_and_possible_routes_of_dispersal

          Early pottery in Afroeurasia – Origins and possible routes of dispersal

          Article (PDF Available) in Bericht der Romisch-Germanischen Kommission 89:59-88 · January 2008 with 453 Reads
          Detlef Gronenborn

          Ciekawe, czy złapiesz za wąs albo za usta i połączysz co Mię się łączy..?

          Polubienie

          • „Ciekawe, czy złapiesz za wąs albo za usta i połączysz co Mię się łączy..?”
            A nie możesz tego po prostu napisać? Co Cię się łączy?

            Nasz wąs ma swoją stronę
            https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/w%C4%85s#Polish
            From Proto-Slavic *ǫsъ, i ta rekonstrukcja też ma swoją stronę
            https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/%C7%ABs%D1%8A
            Ale zobacz zobacz, terminy pochodne od protoslavic wąsa to wg twórców dąsać – dąs, gąsienica – gąs.
            Co myślisz o pąs? Też pasuje i jest tak blisko lat. posse – power, ability. (w kontekście wąs – mąż – potencja)

            A wesz? Też z tego samego źródła?

            Poza Słoweńcami najpodobniejsze do polskich wąsów mają Estiowie.
            https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vunts
            From Baltic German Wunzen. Alternatively from Polish wąsy.

            Znalazłam mapę.

            a tu mapa z komentarzami

            Goatee i bigote rzeczywiście są podobne. Więc Bigote nie musi oznaczać 2 Gotów ani podwójnej boskości a po prostu 2 kozie brody.

            Polubienie

            • Hahahaha… Goccy linkfiści znielubiom Cię! Widać, że Wa”S i o’STa są ciekawe. Co do odtfaszania nie wiem, czy można temu ufać, co se odtfoszyli w niby PS… 🙂

              Polubienie

              • Pewnie nie zwróciłeś większej uwagi na mapy, ale tam jest ciekawie.
                Np. ruskie usy, słowackie fuzy, rusińskie wusy jak i nasze wąsy sa z proto *wónsa.
                Który to pochodzi od PIE *wend- z jakimś h. Włosy, wełna.
                Czyli Wenedowie Wends musieli być od praPIE włochaci jak Wołosi. Co?
                Jak chcesz wiedzieć to moustache i jego pierwowzór grecki mustax (nad ustami haha) niby pochodzą od PIE *mend- z jakimś h. Żuć, memłać.
                Grecy memłali wąsy. A potem Szwedzi.
                Tylko, że mend i wend maja się tak jak językowe południe i północ. Jak Milano (Pd) i Wilno (pln). Już ci pisałam, że zmiana w<>m była. Fale się komuś pokreciły.
                Daj 2 X 10 słów rolniczych i pasterskich. OK.?

                Polubienie

                • Pełna zgoda, że z tym odtfoszonym *mend, no to jakieś mędzenie jest. No cóż, sama widzisz, jak to z tym jęsykosnaftzfem jest… 😦

                  Polubienie

  19. Doszłam do wniosku, że Bibotea może mieć coś z naszym wyw/wiw…, jak wywinąć.
    Czy nie uważasz, że baskijski bibąt to jak nasze wywiją?
    To wygląda jakby pochodziło od wić? wąć? Co myślisz?

    A wiedziałeś, ze mouth to nie tylko usta. “ early 14c., „to speak,”.”
    Gdyby w 14w. wymawiali W za U to by mówili?

    Polubienie

    • MWiLi 😉

      Jutro puszczam szkic wstępu i początku książki tu do oceny i zaproszenie do rzetelnej dyskusji o rzeczywistych Pra-Początkach Pra-Słowiańszczyzny. Słowianofobia i inne nazistowskie, czy pustynne pierdolstwa surowo wzbronione!

      Jeśli nie mam racji, trzeba to wykazać, a jak nie, no to… 🙂

      Polubienie

  20. Agrós – pole

    ale

    Agrios – dziki – (nieudomowiony)

    To jest z języka rolników?
    Góry podchodza, ale w tym 2 znaczeniu – terenu niedostępnego. Albo jałowego.

    Polubienie

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